Friday Official Update, July 27, 2012

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Walrus1

Thanks, but give Fenrir, who said it originally, all the credit! I just +1'ed.

Lol..I wasnt going to say anything..thought id give you your moment to bath in glory

[robtek]

Originally Posted by adonys

since you play the devil's advocate role, let me take the prosecutor's one, please.. will you?!!

so.. let's see..

1) it isn't B6's fault that he's not good at english (and he really isn't). on the other hand, it's surely MG's fault.. how hard would it be to find out a decent english speaking employee in 2012? I guess, specially when that's a programmer, it's actually harder to try and find one who isn't at least an acceptable english speaker.

most of the game development/programming/WW2 and WW2 aviation documentation are in english.. don't tell me.. they have a translator.. well then, they could have using that translator to translate their forum posts too, you know..

it's like a summer beach hotel hiring a babylonian speaking only receptionist in the middle of the season.. or like shooting yourself in your leg!

this goes for a Darwin award class B

2) i'm 200% sure that's the case.. but yet.. why just not tell us so.. and tell us the shop is closed for another week, until they'll clean up all the bugs and they can open it again.. how sadistic a person one must be to keep the customers in line for a full week, while you're painting your bakery's walls with insecticide?!!

this again goes for a Darwin award, class B

3) and?!! people got ill all the time. people even die, you know? do you think MG will stop selling BoM for a week because one of us died while waiting for it?

also, we have a life too, and I don't like to spend it F5'ing MG's forum.. a minimum respect for my customer's status and time would have been to just put a "go away no patch new until 25th august 2020" 9 words announcement on the forum.. would that have been too much to ask for my 60 £ Collector's Edition IL2CoD?!!

the show must go on, as I'm sure you know it. B6 is ill, we all wish him well, but this doesn't meant there's no one else on this world which could write a few lines in a post on the forum..

for God's sake, even copy/pasting the build's download link would have been enough, we already got used to getting them without any kind of readme whatsoever!

there you go, you wouldn't even have to knew english to do this.

Darwin class D for this one.

3) hmm.. dunno what to say about that.. I would have thought that IL2CoD's launch reception and sales faster than light sale drops should have thought them until now that they really need to pull up their heads from their arses and actually do something to fix the mess they've created it by themselves!

but considering their behavior.. it seems not.. and in this case, a vocal punishing community expressing it's frustration might still wake them up and force them do the right thing, by showing the only dragon they fear: our wallet

Another D in here..

5) what are you trying to say in here.. that if some game on which we paid once was shitty and full of bugs, we must continue to accept and pay for shitty and full of bugs games?!!

aaa.. really?!!

This one's a clear winner for an A Darwin award

6) (I'm sure you meant this last one to actually by 6, and not 5 bis)

are you a programmer? have you ever worked in game development industry? have you ever coded a game for yourself? have you at least read some books about game development?

no?

then.. how can you pretend that IL2CoD's is the most complicated game to code in this part of the Universe?!!

the scenario you actually put in there is actually valid for all games, even for Solitaire.. this really shows your level of expertise in this one.

and just to let you know, IL2CoD it is NOT, and this by far, the most complicated game/software to be developed these days (and if you need arguments fo this, do a search for one of my posts about this).

stop being an ignorant pretending he knows the absolute truth, and start using your head to do the thinking.

And another A Darwin award winner


And in the end, just to make it crystal clear: we all know that development takes time, and nothing can be achieved over night. We're just asking for respect, to be treated like adults and not to be feeded with ridiculous lies even a blind man can see through!

It is so sad that someone is cultivating his dissatisfaction and limited view with so much energy.

Really wasted energy, imo.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by adonys

since you play the devil's advocate role, let me take the prosecutor's one, please.. will you?!!

so.. let's see..

1) it isn't B6's fault that he's not good at english (and he really isn't). on the other hand, it's surely MG's fault.. how hard would it be to find out a decent english speaking employee in 2012? I guess, specially when that's a programmer, it's actually harder to try and find one who isn't at least an acceptable english speaker.

most of the game development/programming/WW2 and WW2 aviation documentation are in english.. don't tell me.. they have a translator.. well then, they could have using that translator to translate their forum posts too, you know..

it's like a summer beach hotel hiring a babylonian speaking only receptionist in the middle of the season.. or like shooting yourself in your leg!

this goes for a Darwin award class B

2) i'm 200% sure that's the case.. but yet.. why just not tell us so.. and tell us the shop is closed for another week, until they'll clean up all the bugs and they can open it again.. how sadistic a person one must be to keep the customers in line for a full week, while you're painting your bakery's walls with insecticide?!!

this again goes for a Darwin award, class B

3) and?!! people got ill all the time. people even die, you know? do you think MG will stop selling BoM for a week because one of us died while waiting for it?

also, we have a life too, and I don't like to spend it F5'ing MG's forum.. a minimum respect for my customer's status and time would have been to just put a "go away no patch new until 25th august 2020" 9 words announcement on the forum.. would that have been too much to ask for my 60 £ Collector's Edition IL2CoD?!!

the show must go on, as I'm sure you know it. B6 is ill, we all wish him well, but this doesn't meant there's no one else on this world which could write a few lines in a post on the forum..

for God's sake, even copy/pasting the build's download link would have been enough, we already got used to getting them without any kind of readme whatsoever!

there you go, you wouldn't even have to knew english to do this.

Darwin class D for this one.

3) hmm.. dunno what to say about that.. I would have thought that IL2CoD's launch reception and sales faster than light sale drops should have thought them until now that they really need to pull up their heads from their arses and actually do something to fix the mess they've created it by themselves!

but considering their behavior.. it seems not.. and in this case, a vocal punishing community expressing it's frustration might still wake them up and force them do the right thing, by showing the only dragon they fear: our wallet

Another D in here..

5) what are you trying to say in here.. that if some game on which we paid once was shitty and full of bugs, we must continue to accept and pay for shitty and full of bugs games?!!

aaa.. really?!!

This one's a clear winner for an A Darwin award

6) (I'm sure you meant this last one to actually by 6, and not 5 bis)

are you a programmer? have you ever worked in game development industry? have you ever coded a game for yourself? have you at least read some books about game development?

no?

then.. how can you pretend that IL2CoD's is the most complicated game to code in this part of the Universe?!!

the scenario you actually put in there is actually valid for all games, even for Solitaire.. this really shows your level of expertise in this one.

and just to let you know, IL2CoD it is NOT, and this by far, the most complicated game/software to be developed these days (and if you need arguments fo this, do a search for one of my posts about this).

stop being an ignorant pretending he knows the absolute truth, and start using your head to do the thinking.

And another A Darwin award winner


And in the end, just to make it crystal clear: we all know that development takes time, and nothing can be achieved over night. We're just asking for respect, to be treated like adults and not to be feeded with ridiculous lies even a blind man can see through!

Oh BRAVO....

People of your ilk have long lost the right to be 'treated like adults' as your above post so aptly demonstrates.

Has it ever occured to you that the programming crew might spend so many hours in a day trying to get stuff fixed that they might not relish the idea of coming in here and being haranged by obnoxious flaming little brats of the ilk that you so excellently typify. To know that you frustrations wll be compounded by whiny grabbing ignorants who'll villify you for your efforts because they can't generate enough brain power to look beyond their own selfish little desires?

I'd stay so damn far away it's not funny.

B6 is their spokes person, he was away for one damn day for reasons beyond his control. Sh1t happens, get over it.

And as for programming, No I'm not a programmer, but I've used enough html and flash codes over the years and had friends of mine who are try to explain coding that actually I damn well KNOW it CAN be that complicated. You are the one who sounds like he doesn't have a clue. Unless of course you have a brand new WW2 flight sim of amazing high fidelity flight dyamics, with your own home built game engine waiting in the wings?

No? i didn't think so. Just goes to show there are too many pretentious ignorant pricks around here.

[Rjel]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Oh BRAVO....
...Just goes to show there are too many pretentious ignorant pricks around here.

On both sides of the argument.

[Frequent_Flyer]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Nice petulant attitude round here.

Once you guys have stopped behaving like spoiled brats and have collected your toys and put them back in the pram perhaps you might take the time to consider a few things, like adults:

1) B6 is not a native English speaker -albeit quite a good one - and some of what he said on Friday*might* have beeen lost in translation. Perhaps the patch was never due out today.

2) They might have run into a serious issue with patch that can't be 'just fixed' as some round here seem to think it so easily done.

3) B6 is ill - and yet some of you still hound him for not establishing the patch status! Grow a little empathy will ya?! Some of us in this world have more important things to do - it's called life btw - than drip feed people here information on the status of a computer game. Jeez!

4) Given the recent move of Maddox Games and the general air of poor communication I'd hazard a guess that things are pretty tough there at the moment financially; I suspect that a lot of programmers are working long hours with little or no overtime pay to try and fix the game engine; the complexity of the new game features with the concurrent analysis of several million lines of still neophyte code to go through - most of which, if changed, will have several knock on effects to still more code - I personally am not surprised at the length of time fixes are taking to come about. Remember that peoples job security hangs on the ability to fix the code in order to make Battle Over Moscow, and ANY of the prospective further developments viable, sellable products. Those guys will know that. They will understand that in order to save their jobs and look at some prospect of employment longevity it has to be done. Or face the Russian dole queue (is there one?) in the midst of a world wide ecomomic recession. Given that motivation I don't think that attitudes round here are a) very relevent or b) very helpful.

5) I appreciate many of you are angry at having paid out for essentially a lame duck. It shouldn't have been released in that state but developer and publisher contracts are Holy writ. In an ideal world the 6 years of development should have come to more than this, I agree. However in the history of computer gaming things like this have always happened - how many duff games have hit the shelf over the years to be poorly supported, if at all. Christ, CFS2 was chock full of bugs - for those who remember it - and that was Microsofts most succesful Combat Flight Sim! The point is you can't keep haranguing them for it - what is done is done, and no amount of bitching moaning or threatening can change that.

5) We've been spoilt with Il-2, first by Oleg and now Team Daidalos, whose free and regular quality patching over the past 11 years has been exemplary, if not unique. However Il-2s coding is by all accounts several orders of magnitude simpler. All those features you wanted for BoB, that weren't in Il-2? Extra code. And not just one line, but probably a several hundred, each one cascading and interlinked to many others. Finding the faults, let alone fixing is going to take much more time than with Il-2. And every time you do fix, it is likely that it throws something else out. You demanded certain things be modelled, you said that you wanted higher fidelity. Well welcome to the cost gentlemen. Codes don't write themselves. Someone - and not just any someone but a trained, smart, motivated, alert and observant computer programmer - has to be sitting in front of a machine punching the keys. This takes time. Get used to it.

You present a very good case for 1c to hire a professional organization to finish what has been started !

[Hood]

What role does B6 have in developing or compiling the patch? Is it difficult to upload and link the patch and the readme?

Sure B6 does a hard job, but the rest don't seem to back him up. I don't know of many businesses that are reliant on customer goodwill that just don't support each other.

I think I'll be junior counsel for the prosecution.

Hood

[PotNoodles]

Just for the record, I would say most adults want a satisfactory outcome to a product they have purchased. I would also expect most adults to kick up a fuss if they kept getting fobbed off with what looks like the same stuff week in and week out. So lets cut out the "child jibes" shall we if we want to act like adults.

[Blackdog_kt]

If people spent as much energy in the sim as they do in the forums


1) we would have a deeper knowledge of how things work in the sim, making it easier to see exactly why something else doesn't work

2) we would have compiled our own comprehensive, prioritised bug list and submitted it to 1c, making it much faster to correct them.

3) we would have workarounds for most of the things that don't work

4) armed with all the above, we would have tons of missions to enjoy (online and offline) because people would be able to work around the problems


You know, like Wolf does in his channel command mission that is hosted on ATAG. Or like some of us did in trying to give a proper battle of Britain feel to this sim, first by trying to make bombers workable and then by advocating certain priorities in specific gameplay fixes. Highly unpopular gameplay fixes but negligible in terms of work hours required (especially compared to some of the more popular features), which however have a tremendous effect on gameplay. You know, stuff like the LW bombers being able to aim their bombs in a sim about a battle where LW was bombing the UK. Or getting someone to copy-paste the working code from the He-111's gyrocompass to the non-working Ju88's gyrocompass. We've had to wait 18 months for that last one, not because the devs didn't know about it, but because too many people thought the tracers were not squiggly enough, or the grass was too green, or whatever else "highly important" feature that was shouted from the rooftops at various points in time and had to be appeased by taking full priority in the dev team's schedule


Well, people like Wolf want things to work in the game and he made them work. Now he's got the developer's ear and is in direct communication with them about bug hunting and testing, because he sees things that the majority of users don't: FMB bugs, scripting issues, netcode problems, etc. Important stuff. In a similar fashion, in the "news from sukhoi.ru" thread i saw that they are fixing the bombsights too.

The sim will start feeling like battle of Britain instead of battle of the Dover-Calais strait, compared to that a delay of a few days or even a week or two is inconsequential to me. If they told me "we'll fix all known bugs in all aircraft systems but release the patch two weeks later" i'd say "sure, go for it", because:
- It's easier and totally unambiguous to get right, as opposed to the endless FM/DM debates. A switch is a switch and does a specific thing.
- It ups the realism and authenticity, giving us more to play with until everything else is ironed out.
- Even if the FMs are a bit dodgy still, it gives us aircraft that can function in their intended role.


Overall, the funny thing is that a few people in the community who just wanted the sim to work for themselves and did something to achieve it, will result in the sim getting fixed faster for everyone, including those who think we're wasting our time. Well, in a sense we are all wasting our time here, it's a hobby.

The difference is how much you (impersonal "you", in general) make the hobby work for you, because that's what differentiates between the "good" and "bad" kinds of wasted time. You put some time in, you get some knowledge out of it that helps you enjoy it more. Or you can just tell everybody else to hurry up in the forums, report the bugs for you, find the workarounds for you, host the servers for you, build the missions for you, etc etc. Well, if they thought like you, none of that would ever get done and your $50 would surely have been wasted. So either join them in their efforts or let them do their job for you in peace.
You might have paid money to maddox games, but you haven't paid any to all the community members that are helping the developer team fix your game, have you now? Well, we don't want money, we just want to be left to work in peace for a while

[LOPAN]

Originally Posted by PotNoodles

Just for the record, I would say most adults want a satisfactory outcome to a product they have purchased. I would also expect most adults to kick up a fuss if they kept getting fobbed off with what looks like the same stuff week in and week out. So lets cut out the child jibes shall we.

And to say nothing about that this was priced as an AAA title (US$50).

[MadBlaster]

I wonder if B6 is fibbing about being sick to cover for "unforeseen circumstance". I used to do that sometimes when I didn't want to go to school. "Mom, I don't feel good". It's a pretty good trick. Maybe we should do a poll?