Spit sabotaged, Goering releieved

[JtD]

"The characteristics of the control free lateral oscillation were determined by trimming the airplane for steady flights and then deflecting the rudder and releasing the controls. Records were taken of the subsequent variations of sideslip angle. The measurements were made in the curising condition at 125 and 200 miles per hour. The damping of the oscillation satisfactory met the requirement of reference 1. At 200 miles per hours, one oscillation and at 125 miles per hours 1.5 oscillations were required for the motion to damp to one-half amplitude."

Taken from NACA wartime report "Measurements of the flying qualities of a Supermaring VA airplane". Feel free to compare to in game.

If real life reference is not your point, I'd recommend you go to the difficulty panel and switch off torque effects.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

The aim of the trim controls is to relieve the pilot of pulling or pushing the stick with a constant force all the time; that can be tiring. Even the joystick forces can be tiring if you got to hold it quite far away from its neutral position. Among other things, this high constant force makes the hand control the stick in an imprecise manner, with the flight curve getting wavy.

That has been exactly the case using the exponential control curves the game offers for the potentiometer sticks. These are intended to deal with the 'noise' problem of the potentiometers. Namely, in the vicinity of the neutral, the noise can be stronger than the stick signal, twitching the plane and making it shudder all the time. If you reduce the stick output in the zone near to the neutral point, you reduce this shuddering - and farther away the noise effect is less noticeable.

That was the ratio behind the stick output tables of the IL2. Still, using them had several disadvantages; among them - you had to swing your stick far out to get a strong control output. That means, if you wanted to climb constantly, for example, you had to push the stick hard back; moreover, reacting exponentially, the stick output would start growing steeply with each millimeter you pulled, making the precise control impossible; your climb curve looked like a wave.

So the the trim controlls in the Il2 are really necessary if you are using the potentiometer stick and the exponential output curve it needs. Or if you fly any of the pronounced energy fighters like the P38 and don't want to throw away an ounce of energy. For the lesser mortals like me with a hall sensor stick- the hand alone gives a control that is precise enough in most cases.

That is what I meant, and I hope i could explain it, too; if not, do feel free to ask, please.

[Falke]

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

I see now I answered only a part of your questions. What you mean is the output reduction to simulate the growing stick forces at high speeds; this cannot be done by the stick output table, it is done by the game code, dynamically, according to the plane speed. (No sense in reducing it at the stick, to be in force all the time irrespective of the plane speed)

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.
It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.
To really simulate the trim, the stick should move slightly as you apply it, hands off. As you see, that is impossible to recreate exactly.
Take a look at the plane elevators on ground in the game, put it to climb position and use the trim. On a real plane the elevator and the stick move always together. In any position except the extreme one, the trimmed elevator in-game is some degrees off from where the stick says it should be. As the elevator nears its extreme throw, the game has to put these two positions together.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Falke

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

Any plane pushes its nose slightly up when you open the throttle, that's normal, Bf does it too. I fly the Bf quite a lot. And if you dont know what am I talking about here, then you do not fly the Spit very much.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by JtD

"The characteristics of the control free lateral oscillation were determined by trimming the airplane for steady flights and then deflecting the rudder and releasing the controls. Records were taken of the subsequent variations of sideslip angle. The measurements were made in the curising condition at 125 and 200 miles per hour. The damping of the oscillation satisfactory met the requirement of reference 1. At 200 miles per hours, one oscillation and at 125 miles per hours 1.5 oscillations were required for the motion to damp to one-half amplitude."

Taken from NACA wartime report "Measurements of the flying qualities of a Supermaring VA airplane". Feel free to compare to in game.

If real life reference is not your point, I'd recommend you go to the difficulty panel and switch off torque effects.

This report is not about torque effects but about the static stability about the vertical (yaw) axis.
If you want lower damping so that the planes get nastier to fly and aim, please do apply that to ALL of them, AND NOT THE SPIT ONLY. I am just trying to imagine the general outcry in such a case.
Now, you can feel free to compare all the other planes to the NACA report. Or do you think the Spit was an especially unstable and unpleasant plane?

[PE_Tihi]

Please, whoever writes expecting my answer, do spare me the bs of the local senior member kind here.

[BadAim]

Thi, The main problem is that your raving about what is at worst a bug like it's something that matters. It's not. Then you accuse the developer of doing this or that to ruin your favorite plane on purpose. That's the stupidest bloody thing I've ever heard of. I really can't believe reasonable people are wasting their valuable time trying to explain anything to you.

If you have an issue with something, bring it up like an adult, air your grievance like an adult, then move the hell on like an adult.

You can call me a fanboi all you want, but it pisses me off when I see people that I respect and who work their butts of (often for free) to provide us a passtime abused like this.

No one is saying that you shouldn't say your piece, just that you should try showing a modicum of respect. Is respect that out of style?

Alternatively you can go make your own bloody flight sim and fly it by yourself. This also goes for all the rest of your whining buddies.

To the ignore list with you!

[JtD]

Torque effect is what is giving you the instability you can't deal with, so if you switch it off, you can stop whining.

The NACA report is not about the static stability. Damped Oscillations are not static.

Why would it be useful to compare all planes to the Spitfire NACA report?

If you have the resources to research, check and if necessary reprogram lateral stability for all planes currently present, I'm sure TD would be more than glad to have you among them.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by BadAim

Thi, The main problem is that your raving about what is at worst a bug like it's something that matters. It's not. Then you accuse the developer of doing this or that to ruin your favorite plane on purpose. That's the stupidest bloody thing I've ever heard of. I really can't believe reasonable people are wasting their valuable time trying to explain anything to you.

If you have an issue with something, bring it up like an adult, air your grievance like an adult, then move the hell on like an adult.

You can call me a fanboi all you want, but it pisses me off when I see people that I respect and who work their butts of (often for free) to provide us a passtime abused like this.

No one is saying that you shouldn't say your piece, just that you should try showing a modicum of respect. Is respect that out of style?

Alternatively you can go make your own bloody flight sim and fly it by yourself. This also goes for all the rest of your whining buddies.

To the ignore list with you!

I ll make an exception of answering to another senior member bs. Dear senior member, the amount of work and creativity that has flown into this game EVEN BEFORE DT CAME TO EXISTENCE is enormous. To my eyes, this could never justify the outright lying of Mr Maddox about the plane performances. Making the Spit the only plane with quite unpleasant flying qualities is simply another dishonesty OF THE SAME KIND, with all the due respect for the enormous work DT has done. So don't turn to me. I simply don't mince words, that s all.