Quote:
Originally Posted by Desode
I'm by no means a conservative in any way shape or form, I guess if I had to label myself, I would be a OLD School liberal/ libertarian. I have a library of over 2000 books so, I do a lot of reading on my own and I agree with most of the cut and paste I posted however,, I don't agree with some of the heritage's views. I'd say I agree with their constitutional views on things concerning limited Federal government. I have read the Constitution over a thousand times and I majored in constitutional law at Harvard.
Do keep in mind that I wrote more of the post then I cut and pasted.
I grew up with parents that were Hard core hipppie Liberals. As my Pops ( retired Prof) likes to say, " Liberals are not Liberals anymore, because they want the government in their everyday lives. Hell , We lived through it once in the 60's and
70's, why would we want them to do anything ever, Ever again. When they overstep the constitution, America suffers. History always repeats itself and its sad to see that people never learn from history. "
Thats how I feel about it too, I grew up playing naked at Berkley during some crazy days. My parents lived for fighting Big government. They are dumb founded as to why people are so stupid today about trusting the American government with anything.
I'm sure we have a difference of opinion on how somethings should be done but I would just about bet we believe in the same goals. I just think that its up to the people to organize and make it happen on their own, State by State, The Federal government of the USA can not be trusted EVER ! They serve their purpose for national defense and helping the states to manage their economies with regulations, but HELL they still need to be watched like a Hawk with the regulations they impose, That way they don't get their hands in the cookie jar.
Power corrupts and even though that is a fact that must be accepted on smaller scales, it can be dealt with and corrected by the people on those smaller scales. When Power is done in a larger scale, it never works because the people loose the ablity to make those corrections, quickly.
Example if your playing Chess with 32 pieces, then you can stop any cheating. If you played chess with 1000 pieces, well it would be harder to stop any cheating. Its the same thing with Government. The founding fathers understood that,and the things that I see right now in america are so far gone from what they wanted its really truly Sad.
Our founding fathers wrote lots of books and those memoirs make it very clear what their intent was. If you really want to understand the constitution then I recommend you study the founding fathers just as much as you do the Constitution of the United states.
I personally believe in a vision of america that has a place for everyone, with all views and freedoms and religions. If you don't like it in one state then go to another one. Each state is meant to be in a way, its own country.
Let the people in each state determine how they run their state. Now days the Federal government wants to make them all laydown under the Federal umbrella and that is WRONG ! Its Bullshit and it doesn't promote what the country was meant to be, by the founding fathers.
Sure there are times when the government has to get involved, but make no mistake, that should be done under very watchful eyes.
I hope you don't hold it against me that I don't have the time to spend endless hours on here debating things, Trust me when I retire it will probably become a hobby of mine. Untill then, I have a family and I'm moving to my family farm, in the rolling hills of Ohio on Monday. I am actually surprised my internet is is still up and running tonight.
I do fear though, that when that time comes for me to pick up my hobby and debate as much as I want, I know in my heart that I will be branded with every bad name in the book. Why ? Because I will always stand for the People and the states they live in, and those rights above all else. I will always stand against any form of federal government that trys to tell those people and their states how to live their lives and run their buisness.
Diversity is what America is,and what america needs, and thats how it was created to be. It is the reason america prospered so well for the first 150 years, but Greed and the government have grown to the point that prosperity is now gone. When the government oversteps the laws that keep it in check,, Diversity is crushed, or it is manipulated,, or used for ill gains. When Government grows, diversity is devoured by greed.
DESODE
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When I said conservative I was referring to more of a fiscal/small government conservative perspective (aka libertarianism)
Anyhow, what's really the difference between strong state governments and a strong federal government? Is it really easier and more efficient to manage a state of 11.5 million people (Ohio) than a nation of 300 million? After you reach a certain number of people, it really doesn't matter how many you have. Speaking as someone who has to deal with one of the worse state governments in the US, I'd much rather have the federal government managing things.
It's important also to realize that the founding fathers had very diverse views and didn't all think alike. For example, Alexander Hamilton thought we should have an elected king, Ben Franklin wanted national representation to be based on the amount of money states donated to the federal government, and Thomas Paine thought the inheritance of wealth should be banned. You can't really paint them all with the same brush, so to speak.
Another thing to remember is that the Constitution is a "living document" (Jefferson himself coined this phrase) No system of laws could possibly be devised that is capable of dealing with all future changes without itself being modified. If that were possible, we'd all be living under the Code of Hammurabi. The Constitution is not a perfect document, after all, it implicitly condoned slavery. We don't follow that part any more. When the Constitution was written, what health care there was available was generally cheap and not that effective, so there was no need to guarantee medical services in the Constitution.
Anyway, this is just pointless speculation in my mind because I don't think that there's any inherent conflict between a public insurance option and the Constitution. The General Welfare clause is more than enough justification in my book. I don't think the public option goes far enough, however. I'm a proponent of a completely nationalized system, and that
does conflict with the Constitution. This is one of the reasons (although again not the primary) that I'm seriously considering emigration.
In the arena of power & corruption, I'd much rather have the government than a profit-driven mega corporation to deal with. At least with the government we actually have a say in who makes the decisions. You are right that we probably share many of the same goals (at least in regards to health care) and I agree that all power rests on the people of the country. It's just that I view the federal government as the structure we use to implement the will of those people. The federal government is not some enemy to be fought, it's
us. If there are flaws in it (and believe me, there are), it's a result of an undereducated, apathetic populace. We get the government we deserve. This is why I believe the American situation beyond hope of improvement. The middle class is shrinking, the public is becoming less and less informed and rationality is all but dead in the majority. What problems we do have in the government (and I'd argue that 80% of them come from the right) are but a minor symptom of a much worse disease.
One last thing: In your previous post you also claimed that the government has never made anything profitable. (I think it was in one of the copy & paste sections). I'd suggest you go look up the Tennessee Valley Authority, for starters.
Well, that's what I think anyway. I didn't touch on everything in your post, but I think I hit the gist. All-in-all, this has been quite a stimulating dialog. I'd be happy to continue it if you have any more to add. And feel free to use cut & paste if you want, just please point it out when you do so, so I don't get confused.
-Later,
Swagger7
09-13-2009, 06:20 AM
That gave me a good laugh.
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