Communism at its best...

[Swagger7]

Originally Posted by Desode

I hear what your saying, The problem is that atleast half of american's don't want the government to make any of their choices on their health care. Its not the governments job here in america. We have heard about the financial costs—and the other costs—of allowing the government to interfere with matters of life and death. However, we haven’t heard whether the Constitution gives Congress the power to enact these plans. What does this say about the status of the Constitution in the minds our policymakers today? If a concerned citizen asks a proponent of nationalized healthcare to point to the constitutional authority for such a law, he may hear that the “General Welfare” clause, the “Necessary and Proper” clause, or the “Interstate Commerce” clause enables Congress to create national public health insurance to act.

None of these clauses—or any others found in the Constitution—gives Congress the power to create a government healthcare system.
The “General Welfare” clause gives Congress the power “To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.” This clause is not a grant of power to Congress. It is a limit to a power given to Congress. It limits the purpose for which Congress can lay and collect taxes.

During the founding, some Anti-Federalists were concerned that this clause “amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defence or general welfare.” But James Madison, the “Father of the Constitution,” explained very clearly that it granted no power to Congress. If the “General Welfare” clause gives Congress the power to promote the general welfare, then why specifically list the other powers in Article I, such as the power to establish post offices and post roads, or to coin money? Wouldn’t it be redundant to list them?

In short, as Madison argued, Congress derives no power from the general welfare clause, which merely serves to limit Congress’s power to lay and collect taxes. Congress can only do so for purposes of common defense or general welfare, in the service of the powers granted to it elsewhere in Article I.

Second, “Necessary and Proper” gives Congress the power “to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States.” Like the general welfare clause, this clause was not a stand-alone grant of power to Congress. Rather, it authorizes Congress to make laws that are necessary (and also proper) to make the other grants of authority in Article I effectual.

In other words, the necessary and proper clause cannot itself authorize national public health insurance. One would have to show that national public health insurance is necessary and proper to execute some other power granted in the Constitution.This puts the proponents of nationalized healthcare back where they started.

Lastly, proponents might argue that national health insurance is part of Congress power “to regulate commerce…among the several states.” While progressives have often used this clause to expand the federal government, it does not apply especially to the creation of a national health insurance, because to create and engage in commerce is not the same thing as regulating commerce among the several states.

Nobody during the framing generation expected the commerce clause to expand the federal government’s authority to anything relating to or resembling commerce. James Madison wrote that it is a power “which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained.” The clause was designed to prevent some states from taxing goods that passed through their boundaries as those goods proceeded to market.

In case, proponents of government healthcare latch on to another clause, the three clauses above and rest of Constitution are explained in depth in the Heritage Guide to the Constitution .

Of course, most progressive advocates of national health insurance are unconcerned whether the Constitution authorizes such a law when a pseudo-constitutional reasoning to reach the desired result will suffice.

I personally think we may see this go before the Supreme court.
Who knows ? All I know is I don't want the Federal government in my health care, They have never done anything right, Everything they do here in america is messed up. Its always really bad, there is so much red tape and loop holes and one thing after another, its just a mess, and everything they do looses money !! EVERYTHING ! They have never ever made anything profitable.

If America was small like Canada or some other countries , yes it may work and work well, But America is to large for it to ever work. Its to much for one government to control, and if they do it, then there is no way to stop them from taking even more control in the future. We are already sliding down a insane slippery hill with what has been done in the last 10 years, Example Look at Bush's Patriot act. Now that thats in place, it will eventualy be used for Bad purposes against the American people. Heck it already is being used in a horrible way.
On top of it all , WE CAN'T AFFORD IT. Its to the point here in America that our dollar is almost worth nothing anymore, and every time the Government spends more money it drops even farther. Is the health care system so far gone that its worth bankrupting our country ? You got to take that into consideration. We could make heavy reforms and drop the cost of health care and not sacrifice our country. Why is that not even being considered ?
Please someone tell me WHY !!

If your from another country then you know how much the falling of our countries money and financial market effects the world markets.

Yeah they say that it will make more competition and lower costs, but how do you compete with the government cost ?

If you run a buisness and you pay health insurance on your workers ,,, and the Government starts taxing you to pay for National Government health care, Why would you keep paying your private insurance ? That would be stupid , your paying more taxes for the National health insurance so why pay twice for the same thing ? That would just be plain bad buisness.
There is no way that it will create competition. It will end Private health care and private insurance. There is no way around it. America's last great job industry is health care based insurance. It makes up almost 30% of the jobs in america.

Now America is lossing jobs like crazy. Right now we have the highest unemployment rate in decades and its getting worse by the week.
What happens to that 30% when All the employers in America say " Well Shit I ain't going to pay All these taxes for national Health care and not use it ?"
Say good bye to even more jobs in America. Because that 30% is going to get hammered with job loss. More job loss means less money put in the free market, That means higer prices on everything, And lets not forget the falling dollar. So now your paying more for everything and your money is worth less, How is this helping anything really ?

We still aren't even taking into consideration the burden that National health care TAX is going to put on America's Small buisness's. How many people are they going to have to lay off or how many people are going to have to close their buisness because of this Tax ?

Plus How is national health care going to create competition to make leaps in medicine. If the government takes over the health care system then where is all the money going to come from for medical research ? Is the Government then going to tax us all to pay for that ?

Constitutional law aside. People just don't understand all the problems it will create else where in America and not just here but in the entire world financial system.

Have you ever stopped to think what country makes the most ground breaking developments in medicine ? Look it up some time. Who is the world leader in medical advancement ?

Just my opinion , Desode

DESODE

Wow, that's a long post. You've made several good points. There are a couple of things I want to research regarding the Constitution before I make a response. You obviously put a lot of passion and time into your post and I want to make sure I put as much effort into my response, so it'll be a little while (like sometime later tonight). I just posted this now to let you know that I'm not ignoring your post, (since I responded to everyone else) I just need more time to do some background work on this. (and I do have to leave for work in like 4 minutes).

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by trk29

What is taking you to Spain?

This!!!

[Zatoichi_Sanjuro]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

Wow, that's a long post. You've made several good points. There are a couple of things I want to research regarding the Constitution before I make a response. You obviously put a lot of passion and time into your post and I want to make sure I put as much effort into my response, so it'll be a little while (like sometime later tonight). I just posted this now to let you know that I'm not ignoring your post, (since I responded to everyone else) I just need more time to do some background work on this. (and I do have to leave for work in like 4 minutes).

Most of it is plagiarized.

[Swagger7]

Originally Posted by Zatoichi_Sanjuro

Most of it is plagiarized.

Now, now, now, we can't expect the poor conservatives to be able to think for themselves, can we? From whence is it plagiarized? Desode does have some good points buried in there, but there are some serious issues of economic understanding, and of course his guide to the Constitution is hardly impartial. (It was published by the Reaganesque conservative "Heritage Foundation", after all.)

So, what do you have to say, Desode? Did you really just cut & paste without doing your own work? If so, then I'll just recommend a book for you to read instead of spending my time responding. Well?

[Hori]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

Seriously?!? What the f**k is wrong with these monkey-brained rightist imbeciles in this country? I've just about given up on America myself. I'll always be proud of our heritage and founding ideals, but I've just about had enough of the country as it is. I'm gonna finish my (very expensive) education and then start looking for somewhere else to live.Perhaps Australia, or somewhere in Europe. (though I'd have to learn a new language.) America is too caught up in the consumerist rat-race. Civic virtue is dead and the middle class is dying. The current administration is a step in the right direction (well, actually the left direction ) but it's too little, too late. Reaganomics and the repeal of the Bretton Woods agreement have already done too much damage. As far as I can tell, the USA has started the long, slow process of entropic decay and there's nothing left that can be done about it.

By the way, Desode has absolutely no idea what he's talking about when it comes to health care. My brother knocked a dagger off its stand in his room last year and it fell and stabbed him in the thigh. It didn't go in deep enough to damage anything, so he just needed stitches. Even after the insurance paid for most of it, it still cost us over TWELVE HUNDRED DOLLARS! This was a procedure a WWI field medic could have preformed and it cost over a grand! I'm sorry, anyone who thinks that the US health care system isn't completely broken has their head in the clouds (or more likely up their ass).

So anyways, you know the oft touted expression, "This is AMERICA. If you don't like it, GET OUT!"?
Well, I think that's a f**king good idea!

I managed to cut my face at work, took a 5 minute cab ride to the hospital, got stitched up, took the cab back to work. Didn't cost me anything apart from the cabfare. The whole thing took 30 minutes. The only thing the hospital needed was my name. US healthcare is..... not very good. I live in Norway.

ps
Soviet Ace, pot isn't legal here.

[Wissam24]

Same in Britain. The NHS is a wonderful thing.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by Hori

Soviet Ace, pot isn't legal here.

Don't worry, it was just a joke. But I'm moving to southern Spain where I can surf!!!

[Rufus_the_Rat]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

This is one of the largest problems I have with America today: Americans love their country, but we don't seem to give a shit about our countrymen.

Nicely said. I can't figure out what's wrong with you folks down south. We have had public health care here in Canada for decades and it works just fine. It hasn't bankrupted our country, it's made it better. Stop drinking the cool aid of the drug companies and insurance industry down there and start thinking for yourselves. America is the richest country in the world yet you can't afford to help your fellow man? Bollocks.

[Desode]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

Now, now, now, we can't expect the poor conservatives to be able to think for themselves, can we? From whence is it plagiarized? Desode does have some good points buried in there, but there are some serious issues of economic understanding, and of course his guide to the Constitution is hardly impartial. (It was published by the Reaganesque conservative "Heritage Foundation", after all.)

So, what do you have to say, Desode? Did you really just cut & paste without doing your own work? If so, then I'll just recommend a book for you to read instead of spending my time responding. Well?

I'm by no means a conservative in any way shape or form, I guess if I had to label myself, I would be a OLD School liberal/ libertarian. I have a library of over 2000 books so, I do a lot of reading on my own and I agree with most of the cut and paste I posted however,, I don't agree with some of the heritage's views. I'd say I agree with their constitutional views on things concerning limited Federal government. I have read the Constitution over a thousand times and I majored in constitutional law at Harvard.

Do keep in mind that I wrote more of the post then I cut and pasted.

I grew up with parents that were Hard core hipppie Liberals. As my Pops ( retired Prof) likes to say, " Liberals are not Liberals anymore, because they want the government in their everyday lives. Hell , We lived through it once in the 60's and
70's, why would we want them to do anything ever, Ever again. When they overstep the constitution, America suffers. History always repeats itself and its sad to see that people never learn from history. "

Thats how I feel about it too, I grew up playing naked at Berkley during some crazy days. My parents lived for fighting Big government. They are dumb founded as to why people are so stupid today about trusting the American government with anything.

I'm sure we have a difference of opinion on how somethings should be done but I would just about bet we believe in the same goals. I just think that its up to the people to organize and make it happen on their own, State by State, The Federal government of the USA can not be trusted EVER ! They serve their purpose for national defense and helping the states to manage their economies with regulations, but HELL they still need to be watched like a Hawk with the regulations they impose, That way they don't get their hands in the cookie jar.

Power corrupts and even though that is a fact that must be accepted on smaller scales, it can be dealt with and corrected by the people on those smaller scales. When Power is done in a larger scale, it never works because the people loose the ablity to make those corrections, quickly.

Example if your playing Chess with 32 pieces, then you can stop any cheating. If you played chess with 1000 pieces, well it would be harder to stop any cheating. Its the same thing with Government. The founding fathers understood that,and the things that I see right now in america are so far gone from what they wanted its really truly Sad.
Our founding fathers wrote lots of books and those memoirs make it very clear what their intent was. If you really want to understand the constitution then I recommend you study the founding fathers just as much as you do the Constitution of the United states.

I personally believe in a vision of america that has a place for everyone, with all views and freedoms and religions. If you don't like it in one state then go to another one. Each state is meant to be in a way, its own country.

Let the people in each state determine how they run their state. Now days the Federal government wants to make them all laydown under the Federal umbrella and that is WRONG ! Its Bullshit and it doesn't promote what the country was meant to be, by the founding fathers.

Sure there are times when the government has to get involved, but make no mistake, that should be done under very watchful eyes.

I hope you don't hold it against me that I don't have the time to spend endless hours on here debating things, Trust me when I retire it will probably become a hobby of mine. Untill then, I have a family and I'm moving to my family farm, in the rolling hills of Ohio on Monday. I am actually surprised my internet is is still up and running tonight.

I do fear though, that when that time comes for me to pick up my hobby and debate as much as I want, I know in my heart that I will be branded with every bad name in the book. Why ? Because I will always stand for the People and the states they live in, and those rights above all else. I will always stand against any form of federal government that trys to tell those people and their states how to live their lives and run their buisness.

Diversity is what America is,and what america needs, and thats how it was created to be. It is the reason america prospered so well for the first 150 years, but Greed and the government have grown to the point that prosperity is now gone. When the government oversteps the laws that keep it in check,, Diversity is crushed, or it is manipulated,, or used for ill gains. When Government grows, diversity is devoured by greed.
DESODE

[Soviet Ace]