Vote your choice - Clickable Cockpits or Not

[nearmiss]

Look at it this way... hopefully

If the cockpit is clickable that means there won't be some big knees, hands or feet blocking the cockpit views. I don't know about the moving stick, but I hope it's gone as well. The moving rudder pedals are out of the way, so I don't care if they are moving.

I've always hated a big pair of hands, the stick or knees blocking the view of instruments. I recall trying to see the slip and ball when it is obstructed by the stick and a big hand wrapped around it.

Then of course I've done most of my Il2 flying by using a trackball (mouse) with my left hand for viewing. The mouse being tied to views will probably force us to use a free-track or Track IR for viewing, because the mouse will be used for moving around the cockpit and clicking.

So... I don't see a possible way to use the mouse for viewing and clicking at the same time. Maybe possible, but I don't see it.

Regardless, it probably isn't a bad thing for users to have to cough up another $200 for a Track IR, afterall we need to support the suppliers that are supporting us. LOL

I have have an aversion to track IR, because they keep banging on us with so called improved versions. They could have just released the software like CH Products and we could use the parts for years, but no they make miniscule changes in the hardware and stick us for another big chunk of money. I always considered Track IR a rip off for this reason alone, not because of product quality.

Now it would appear with Track IR making moves to exclude competition by including special software hooks in game applications and TrackIR software to exclude options like Free-track we'll have to pay to see.

[WhiteSnake]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I have have an aversion to track IR, because they keep banging on us with so called improved versions. They could have just released the software like CH Products and we could use the parts for years, but no they make miniscule changes in the hardware and stick us for another big chunk of money. I always considered Track IR a rip off for this reason alone, not because of product quality.

Now it would appear with Track IR making moves to exclude competition by including special software hooks in game applications and TrackIR software to exclude options like Free-track we'll have to pay to see.

I totaly agrea with that 100%
Its also funny that if you mention an alternative to TrackIR like Free-Track on the UBI forums your post gets removed and you get a warning your not alouwed to discus it on there...

[WhiteSnake]

Originally Posted by robtek

Even in the 109 the position of quite a few switches and levers changed with the different versions.
Also in this SIMULATION that BoB:SoW will be the majority of flight-time will be Starting, landing, cruising. The time for battle is severely limited by the fuel situation.
So there will be enough boring minutes that can be filled by operating a clickpit, and one will shurely nurse ones 109 back home with the engine running at max endurance with the fuel warning light on.

In a Dogfight a Pilot is Not going to look at the Switch or Lever he needs to operate, They design a Cocpit in such a way the Pilot can easly use them with out having to look, some switches, levers are also designed in such a way you cant engage them accedently or by how they feel or by a safety device.
Basicly all the things you would need in a Dogfight are configured in such a way that you didnt need to look at them, and in somecases the Cockpit panel would have an indication of the setting its on also.

Think about your Car, wen you need to use the indicators, whipers, or headlights/highbeam/lowbeam etc. or change gears your not looking at the switches and levers your operating also (i hope) you just do that automaticly and to help you there are lights on your instrument pannel indicating if the lighrts etc are on or not.

Maybe someone will make a Controle Pannel in the future you can use on a Seperate Touchscreen to controle all the difrent functions of the Aircraft, and wen you change to a model or country the pannel changes apearance and functions.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by WhiteSnake

In a Dogfight a Pilot is Not going to look at the Switch or Lever he needs to operate, They design a Cocpit in such a way the Pilot can easly use them with out having to look, some switches, levers are also designed in such a way you cant engage them accedently or by how they feel or by a safety device.
Basicly all the things you would need in a Dogfight are configured in such a way that you didnt need to look at them, and in somecases the Cockpit panel would have an indication of the setting its on also.

Think about your Car, wen you need to use the indicators, whipers, or headlights/highbeam/lowbeam etc. or change gears your not looking at the switches and levers your operating also (i hope) you just do that automaticly and to help you there are lights on your instrument pannel indicating if the lighrts etc are on or not.

Maybe someone will make a Controle Pannel in the future you can use on a Seperate Touchscreen to controle all the difrent functions of the Aircraft, and wen you change to a model or country the pannel changes apearance and functions.

Some people are hopeless!
There is NOT only black and white!!!
NOBODY is forced to use the mouse for flaps, power, firing the guns, prop-pitch etc...
Those controls will still be on the hotas!!! except if one is a hidden masochist and likes to loose all fights
SoW:BoB will have so many additional switches and levers that have to be used in "full real" settings that most hotas systems wont have enough buttons!
It is easier to remember a position in a cockpit and use the mouse than to remember ,say 30, new, obscure key combinations.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by WhiteSnake

In a Dogfight a Pilot is Not going to look at the Switch or Lever he needs to operate, They design a Cocpit in such a way the Pilot can easly use them with out having to look, some switches, levers are also designed in such a way you cant engage them accedently or by how they feel or by a safety device.
Basicly all the things you would need in a Dogfight are configured in such a way that you didnt need to look at them, and in somecases the Cockpit panel would have an indication of the setting its on also.

Think about your Car, wen you need to use the indicators, whipers, or headlights/highbeam/lowbeam etc. or change gears your not looking at the switches and levers your operating also (i hope) you just do that automaticly and to help you there are lights on your instrument pannel indicating if the lighrts etc are on or not.

Maybe someone will make a Controle Pannel in the future you can use on a Seperate Touchscreen to controle all the difrent functions of the Aircraft, and wen you change to a model or country the pannel changes apearance and functions.

I don't think the study of ergonomics was as advanced in late 30's as it is now and standardisation was anything but common when laying out aircraft cockpits. ( Just look in the IL2 aircraft guide!).

Conversion onto type was a fairly detailed process even switching from one mark of an aircraft to another which is why even to this day you need to get endorsements on your licences before flying a new type of plane.

Hey, even switching between European and Australian cars will have you flicking on the wipers when you wanted to indicate!! We don't automatically know where a switch will be, (It's not allways logical, sometimes they were just put where they fitted) We have to learn where they are. And jumping from one plane (or car for that matter) can lead to mistakes (possibly fatal!).

Fortunately with a fairly small plane set it shouldn't take too long to learn our cockpit layouts.


I for one will be mapping all my essential functions to my HOTAS and switch pannel.

Cheers!

[nearmiss]

It might be interesting to run a similar poll after the clickable cockpits are out for a while. It makes no difference now, since it appears they will be included.

Then again, as I mentioned in a previous posting that Track IR is maneuvering in the flight and air combat flight simulation community. I just hope there is allowance for the mouse to be used as before for viewing, if we choose not to use click cockpits. If we can't use a mouse for viewing with the clickable cockpits I'd say Track IR has pretty well created an annuity for themselves, coupled of course with forcing out applications like Free-track.

The Free-track works very well, if you build a good L.E.D. headset. So... The hooks programmed into the Track IR and applications are intended to prohibit the use of anything like a free-track. Coupled with the autocratic maneuvers at places like Ubi to prohibit talk about Free-track I'd say there is a kind of battle being waged to prevent applications like Free-track. It may be that clickable cockpits play a major role in Track IR strategy.

I don't believe Oleg would conspire and program hooks into BOB SOW to force us to use Track IR.

[SlipBall]

(quote)
It might be interesting to run a similar poll after the clickable cockpits are out for a while


Another good gauge will be the activity (or lack of) on the "full click servers" if they appear...I think the click will invite many new faces to our little world, the possibilities for 1C/third parties will be huge.

[nearmiss]

Oleg might have given some serious thoughts to possibly making a flight simulator, WW2 genre. He has all the makings, especially with the coming weather on the fly, navigation and clickable cockpits.

Afterall, MSFT is out of the picture and the old WW2 warbirds have always been a popular addition to MSFT FS. Afterall, you can't really have a flight simulator without clickable cockpits.

The A2A simulations is still creating warbirds for the MSFT FSX. So, yeah, this might bring in a whole new crowd from the MSFT FS community. I think it could probably be a windfall, if Oleg plays his cards right.

He could introduce some warbirds that have civilian roots and work his way into the "purist" Flight Simulator world

[sigur_ros]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

Head tracking does make things less stable if using them to aim at stuff with. The mouse might be OK (but it moves by itself when using force feedback on the same table!), but it is also affected by the headtracking movement.

Originally Posted by WhiteSnake

especialy if your using TrackIR because the view moves with your head so you have to chase the Switch you want to klick around the screen

This can be solved by making the mouse independent of view, if only developers would consider it. If I put mouse on a button and then look around, as long as I don't touch the mouse, it should remain over that same button. This way it is more like a real human hand that can be positioned in cockpit and turning head should never ever ever move hand! Then no problem with unstable view.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by robtek

Some people are hopeless!
There is NOT only black and white!!!
NOBODY is forced to use the mouse for flaps, power, firing the guns, prop-pitch etc...
Those controls will still be on the hotas!!! except if one is a hidden masochist and likes to loose all fights
SoW:BoB will have so many additional switches and levers that have to be used in "full real" settings that most hotas systems wont have enough buttons!
It is easier to remember a position in a cockpit and use the mouse than to remember ,say 30, new, obscure key combinations.

I would say it in a more polite way, but basically i agree. It has nothing to do with the fact that a pilot has or doesn't have to look down into the cockpit before flicking a switch. It's all about having the option to model an aircraft and its operation in high fidelity and detail, while at the same time not having to map and remember 200 different keybindings and HOTAS controls.

Like i said before, important stuff stays on keyboard and stick, not-so-important or things that i don't want to accidentally toggle stay on the mouse.

Now, as for the necessity of TrackIR in this, if the inteface is "smart" you won't need to buy one. Take RoF for example, a title that i'm not really a fan of for many reasons, but still has some nice features. One such feature is the custom snap-views. Move your camera to see what you want to see, hold down one of the keypad keys, press F10 and it's memorized. The interesting part in this is that when you are holding down the key to activate the snap-view, any kind of panning via mouse or TrackIR is disabled, which gives you a steady picture. Also, each plane has it's own set of different custom views, they are saved as entries in a text file because they are simply a set of coordinates.

Now, add to this the ability to toggle the "hand" cursor on/off to toggle between mouse for panning the camera and mouse for clicking stuff and you're set, maybe by pressing the middle mouse button or any other key you want to map to it.

For example, let's say i map the left cockpit console to keypad 4. I'm flying a FW190 and because i don't consider the "initialize kommandogerat" lever a critical control i haven't mapped it to my stick or keyboard. All that lever does is set mixture to rich and "calibrate" the automatic kommandogerat system for engine start, ergo i have to use ONCE per flight. So, i'm going to click it because i don't want to map and memorize a keyboard shortcut that is only relevant to ONE instance per mission in ONE airframe. Let's say i also don't have a TrackIR. There are two ways to do this:

1) Pan with the mouse to the left, press middle mouse to toggle the "virtual hand", click on lever, press middle mouse again to resume panning or even faster...
2) Press middle mouse button to toggle the "virtual hand", hold down keypad 4 (the shortcut we had defined earlier as the left console snap-view), click lever, press middle mouse again, release keypad 4 and the view snaps back to where it was.

Sorry to have to spell this out in such detail, but i'm getting the idea that a lot of people have the wrong idea that they'll have to click stuff all the time. Maybe it's lack of imagination or they simply haven't tried anything apart from IL2 the last 10 years but trust me, it's way easier than most people think and definitely easier to remember than a full out "all things on HOTAS and keyboard" approach. I mean Jesus, i'm not going to look down so that i can click the gun triggers on the stick in a dogfight, but i sure as heck like to have the option of not having to remember 200 different key combinations either. Neither interface on its own is superior, but when going for high fidelity modelling and including things like carb heaters, fuel pumps and the like, a mix of the two works really well.