Communism at its best...

[H Lecter]

Originally Posted by House MD 221B

lol watch michael moore's Sicko, he is a tool, but the film is interesting, take it with a pinch of salt.

Was that the experiment where he had a guy with a broken leg treated in the US, Canada and Mexico? I read something about it some time ago - will watch it when I can get hold of it.

[House MD 221B]

Originally Posted by Chips86

That one phrase fills me with fear for the future.

because its real name is "the american population"?

Was that the experiment where he had a guy with a broken leg treated in the US, Canada and Mexico? I read something about it some time ago - will watch it when I can get hold of it.

sort of, it goes through healthcare in detail, insurance companies and medical directors, and yes he takes 6 people to Cuba.

it also shows you which congressmen and women were bribed by the insurance companies.

[Desode]

Originally Posted by House MD 221B

lol watch michael moore's Sicko, he is a tool, but the film is interesting, take it with a pinch of salt.

universal healthcare was made to look like socialism, and of course the big reds were scary due to political propoganda, and even regan was involved with spreading the fear of universal healthcare.

its a very interesting topic. but it works for us, canada, and france, and many other coutries.

thats why the republicans will stop at NOTHING to bring up bollocks like death panels and socialised medicine. because most of them are in the pocket of insurance companies.

as i said, watch Sicko, its good. if not a little over-sentimentalised, but it is aimed at the lowest common denominator of the american population.

Guess what if you lived here you would understand why we don't need universal healthcare. Its a waste of money ! The states have the best health care system in the world. If you need anything you get the best of the best and you get to pick any doctor to go to. Trust me I was unisured and I am a 9 year cancer survivor, of stage 3 Bone cancer. I would be dead right now if we had Obama's plan when I got sick. There is no doubt about it. I could have never had my choice of the best doctors and I would be dead. So F**k National health care. It will do nothing but Kill the poor and give them less choice. When your sick in america and your uninsured, You can go to any doctor in the united states and they will treat you with best of care, and all you have to do is fill out some paper work and you will never have to pay a single cent. Its that simple and that EASY !!! Its a complete and total lie that its not that good. We just need to make some reform on the current system, and put some Crooks behind bars. We need to quit treating 38+ million illegals that are driving costs up, and we need to kill off the Unions because they are killing America and its buisness ecomomy.


PLUS,
This Scare tactic crap that people can't get help is a HUGE lie from the government. People don't want this and sad to say it but we will see a civil war over this if Obama keeps pushing.
I live in a little town and last month it was shut down for most of the day because there was over 8000+ people both Black and white protesting against it. Its happening everywhere in America. The news media is just so owned by the government that no one hears anything about it.

America is over 12 Trillion dollars in debt now ! and to top it off the government has never EVER done anything right , EVER !! why would anyone in their right mind want to let them run our healthcare ? I mean really thats just Pathetic. The states need to run their own buisness and then they can compete against each other and the best system will be shown. Our states are like small countries here in the US.

DESODE

[H Lecter]

Originally Posted by Desode

Guess what if you lived here you would understand why we don't need universal healthcare. Its a waste of money ! The states have the best health care system in the world. If you need anything you get the best of the best and you get to pick any doctor to go to. Trust me I was unisured and I am a 9 year cancer survivor, of stage 3 Bone cancer. I would be dead right now if we had Obama's plan when I got sick. There is no doubt about it. I could have never had my choice of the best doctors and I would be dead. So F**k National health care. It will do nothing but Kill the poor and give them less choice. When your sick in america and your uninsured, You can go to any doctor in the united states and they will treat you with best of care, and all you have to do is fill out some paper work and you will never have to pay a single cent. Its that simple and that EASY !!! Its a complete and total lie that its not that good. We just need to make some reform on the current system, and put some Crooks behind bars. We need to quit treating 38+ million illegals that are driving costs up, and we need to kill off the Unions because they are killing America and its buisness ecomomy.


PLUS,
This Scare tactic crap that people can't get help is a HUGE lie from the government. People don't want this and sad to say it but we will see a civil war over this if Obama keeps pushing.
I live in a little town and last month it was shut down for most of the day because there was over 8000+ people both Black and white protesting against it. Its happening everywhere in America. The news media is just so owned by the government that no one hears anything about it.

America is over 12 Trillion dollars in debt now ! and to top it off the government has never EVER done anything right , EVER !! why would anyone in their right mind want to let them run our healthcare ? I mean really thats just Pathetic. The states need to run their own buisness and then they can compete against each other and the best system will be shown. Our states are like small countries here in the US.

DESODE

Wow, I need to understand this. No offense, just curiosity!

You are uninsured, fill some forms and get cured of cancer.

So who paid for the treatment? A private company? Who gave them the money? Is it magic?

No irony/sarcasm/whatever - I just have to know how that system works, nobody seems to know about that over here in Europe.

[Desode]

Originally Posted by H Lecter

Wow, I need to understand this. No offense, just curiosity!

You are uninsured, fill some forms and get cured of cancer.

So who paid for the treatment? A private company? Who gave them the money? Is it magic?

No irony/sarcasm/whatever - I just have to know how that system works, nobody seems to know about that over here in Europe.

State tax, and then Federal Social security tax. Then each state has Tons of Non profit organizations that have funds set up at each hospital, to help people also. The real problem is that the average person, doesn't know how to use the system.
See my state of Ohio is changings since the Democrates took over. Now I'm neither a Dem or a Rep, so please don't think I'm coming from a side in any way.
That said the Dems changed Ohios state health funding to Quote" Save money" Now what did they do ? They set up what is called state HMO's These are insurance companies that if your under state health insurance you have to pick a HMO. The problem is Every doctor, is all Union Doctors. Your choice is now limited and they spend more money then ever now.
Example: In order for me to go and see my Surgeon, who is in the best 10% in the world, I have to now, go see 3 Union doctors and have them sign a piece of paper saying yes he can go see his surgeon. Now The state has to pay each of those 3 doctors $800 each just for a signature for me to see my doctor who is not a Union Doctor. So here in Ohio the Dems they created a massive paper trail that costs them more money just so they can keep the Union support.

Back to your main question, we also have what is called Workmans compensation insurance. So any employer has to pay into this insurance, if you get hurt on the job, and are uninsued you are insured by your employers insurance. If you aren't employed when you get sick then the state has special funds set aside from Gambling tax, Alcohol, and tabbaco tax, to take care of you.
So the cost of my treatment came from all four, State Tax, that I have been paying since birth, Federal Social security tax that I have been paying to the Government for 30 + years, and Workmans Compensation insurance that my employer payed, and Non profits organaztions that provided me with Medications.
Desode

[House MD 221B]

Originally Posted by Desode

Guess what if you lived here you would understand why we don't need universal healthcare. Its a waste of money ! The states have the best health care system in the world. If you need anything you get the best of the best and you get to pick any doctor to go to. Trust me I was unisured and I am a 9 year cancer survivor, of stage 3 Bone cancer. I would be dead right now if we had Obama's plan when I got sick. There is no doubt about it. I could have never had my choice of the best doctors and I would be dead. So F**k National health care. It will do nothing but Kill the poor and give them less choice. When your sick in america and your uninsured, You can go to any doctor in the united states and they will treat you with best of care, and all you have to do is fill out some paper work and you will never have to pay a single cent. Its that simple and that EASY !!! Its a complete and total lie that its not that good. We just need to make some reform on the current system, and put some Crooks behind bars. We need to quit treating 38+ million illegals that are driving costs up, and we need to kill off the Unions because they are killing America and its buisness ecomomy.


PLUS,
This Scare tactic crap that people can't get help is a HUGE lie from the government. People don't want this and sad to say it but we will see a civil war over this if Obama keeps pushing.
I live in a little town and last month it was shut down for most of the day because there was over 8000+ people both Black and white protesting against it. Its happening everywhere in America. The news media is just so owned by the government that no one hears anything about it.

America is over 12 Trillion dollars in debt now ! and to top it off the government has never EVER done anything right , EVER !! why would anyone in their right mind want to let them run our healthcare ? I mean really thats just Pathetic. The states need to run their own buisness and then they can compete against each other and the best system will be shown. Our states are like small countries here in the US.

DESODE

Where in the States are you from?

[The Few]

Originally Posted by House MD 221B

No they arent "unamerican", they're idiots, and they caused MOST of america's Woes,

Again, painting with a broad brush. If you want to call someone idiots then at least level the blame equally. You can't possibly believe that the Democrats are with out blame and have the best interest of every American in mind. Both parties are just as corrupt. Most of America's woes were not created by Republicans alone but by all the talking heads in Congress who smugly posture away their term instead doing their job. You are completely over simplifying the people who share those principles and the causes for America's "woes".

Wars, Health Care System, recession, failing schools, unemployment... the list goes on.

Both wars were supported by Republicans and Democrats alike. If the left had issue with G.W.B.'s desire to go to war they should have taken issue with it from the outset instead of waiting to use it as a platform for reelection. The recession was in part created by Democratic/Republican Reps. failing to oversee it's own institutions (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), while also mandating them to take on riskier lending practices (Clinton Administration). I'm not putting the "blame" on the Clinton Admin. just mentioning it as a contributing factor. Congress knew about the looming issues with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two in advance and failed to blow the whistle because both parties were receiving incentives to not take action. Again, this is just another contributor not the cause or the answer but one link in chain that would take all day to talk about and many have nothing to do with politics.

you see, you're republicans are like our conservative party, they havent learnt that even though their politics CAUSED a recession in the 80's and they privatised all our services and shut down all our mines and industries, that you CANNOT cut taxes, and raise public spending, hence the mass privatisation, the same way that your republicans think you can solve it with small government and its retarded bills and schemes like the no child left behind act where they CUT a schools budget because it ISNT performing.

Don't be condescending and pretend like I'm an uneducated fool. Republicans are similar to Conservatives, really? Who would have guessed that? Thank God not all Republicans think alike. Some of us are even, I don't know if I should dare say it, PROGRESSIVE!

It's common sense that spending cannot increase with tax cuts. Any non ignoramus can see the problems that will create without the use Joseph Smith's seer stone and hat. You know what? There were Republicans critical of the President from their own party! Might that be called thinking for your self? I've never been a Bush supporter and felt like he was handed the 2000 nomination over better candidates (not good ones, just better). I've never towed a party line that doesn't satisfy my own criticism first and if more fools in congress could show the same criticism of their own party leadership *gasp* transparency and trust might begin to trickle into a bloated government that has been ailing from the same petty BS for far to long.

and take it from your uneducated, aggressive, and fevered rant that you are a republican, so go cuddle your .45, and go listen to your conway twitty and get an education about your political parties. Because your politics ARE a concern of ours when your president persuades our leaders to send OUR boys for your treasure hunt in the middle east, and when americas stock market crashes OUR stock market crashes.

I'm not sure how my previous comment made me uneducated and yes it was direct. Much better to be direct then beat around the bush making agonizingly neutral statements like a Canadian (I love you Canada thank you for tolerating me for so long). If your concern is American government interfering with your own I think that is an issue to take up with your own leadership. If the British PM doesn't have the balls to tell someone to f**k off I wouldn't respect them either. I value the lives of your boys as much as my own so please don't minimize my friends that are risking their lives while doing their job and compare it to something that is the equivalent of looking for the Easter Bunny.

I am very educated about the nature and histories of both parties. I don't know how you can make the assumption that I don't. Check out Bull Moose. If you want to talk about past evils look up which party it was that supported slavery, you might be surprised.

Who is Conway Twitty? I have a ridiculously large music collection and I am stumped. If he is some sort of pop country musician that parades around with a Ford logo on his guitar then I would have no idea who he is. More of a CCR guy, love Ryan Adams too. You are very perceptive, .45's are the best!!!

Our politics isnt perfect, but we question it, and argue it, and debate it, and recognise where our mistakes are.

What do you know, we do too.

yet your so quick to be "patriotic" and blindly praise an idiotic leader and his corrupt government, because we arent even going to go into the election fraud and the conspiracies, and the hoaxed second election videos. they were very clever, but lets not pretend they werent VERY dishonest and corrupt, borderlining on illegal.

Yes I am patriotic but that in no way implies that I am blind or an idiot. Show me where I gave praise. I didn't, you merely implied it because I decried the gross generalization of people who align themselves with the ideals of Republicanism (maybe you were only referring to the Reps. themselves but that is not they way your statement read). The Democrats are not angels and saviors of humanity they pretend to be. They just had a brush with some election fraud of their own in Minnesota, not to say it wasn't shady as hell on both sides.

After all that I guess what I'm trying to say is I just don't like it when my principles get attacked in a forum criticizing communism/fascism when they couldn't be more polar .

P.S. Greenday suck!

Glad there is some common ground. Yeah, they should stick to something they're good at like writing songs about masturbation instead of manufacturing dissent.

Any way I'm done with this, always down for more Green Day bashing tho, haha.

[Desode]

What we really need here is reform,
There are states here in the USA that are running their state buisness so well that even with "Americas ecomomic troubles", they are in such great shape that they have a Surplus of Money ! The problem is that the Govenment is now saying to them, Hey you are doing to well and you have managed your state better then other states so you need to suffer for doing good so we can take your money and give it to the states that are having problems.

The problem with this is ,,that in doing so the Government is killing that state that has done well, and has managed their system perfectly.

Under the United states constitution the Federal government doesn't have the athority to do that.

Thats why we have almost 20 states that have threatened leaving the United states of america. When these states joined the United states they signed a contract with the federal government, and that contract says, that they are free to run their own buisness and in return they will pay a percentage of their total State tax to the federal government. Since Bush and now Obama are both going against these old agreements and ignoring the Constitution of the United States, We are on a verge of civil war.

Then we have the News and Tv and they are now bought and paid for by the government so the American people don't know really now what is going on. All over the US people are now not getting any real news so they are using the internet to look up and study the Constitution, and Lots of them are Pissed that the Government is trying to run everything, and they aren't going to take it anymore.
That is what is really happening here in America. See this country has 150 yrs of great prosperity, based on the Constitution and the states running their own affiars, This in turn, made competition between the states and the best finacial plans came to the top. The bad plans and the states that made the bad choices suffer till the people in that state elect a change of state leadership.

Its meant to be this way because then everyones vote makes a real difference and each state and its people live, learn and grow and change for the better.
Now that the Government is over stepping its bounds and spending OUR money like its going out of style , they have come to the conclusion that they need more money and they are stepping on the constitution by telling the states what to do. Some Americans don't understand that in giving the Federal Government this kind of power they are silencing their own voice. Because the more the Government runs the country and the states, then the less the people's vote means.

I hope you get what I'm saying, I can only imagine how strange it is to understand our system.
DESODE

[Desode]

Originally Posted by House MD 221B

Where in the States are you from?

Ohio

[House MD 221B]

Originally Posted by The Few

Glad there is some common ground. Yeah, they should stick to something they're good at like writing songs about masturbation instead of manufacturing dissent.

Any way I'm done with this, always down for more Green Day bashing tho, haha.

I've enjoyed this. you are indeed an interesting person to debate with.

Again, painting with a broad brush. If you want to call someone idiots then at least level the blame equally. You can't possibly believe that the Democrats are with out blame and have the best interest of every American in mind. Both parties are just as corrupt. Most of America's woes were not created by Republicans alone but by all the talking heads in Congress who smugly posture away their term instead doing their job. You are completely over simplifying the people who share those principles and the causes for America's "woes".

I quite agree, but Clinton did alot of good, lowest unemployment in how long? Bush and his party undid ALOT of that.

Both wars were supported by Republicans and Democrats alike. If the left had issue with G.W.B.'s desire to go to war they should have taken issue with it from the outset instead of waiting to use it as a platform for reelection. The recession was in part created by Democratic/Republican Reps. failing to oversee it's own institutions (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), while also mandating them to take on riskier lending practices (Clinton Administration). I'm not putting the "blame" on the Clinton Admin. just mentioning it as a contributing factor. Congress knew about the looming issues with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two in advance and failed to blow the whistle because both parties were receiving incentives to not take action. Again, this is just another contributor not the cause or the answer but one link in chain that would take all day to talk about and many have nothing to do with politics.

It was my understanding there was a LARGE outcry from the left. however 911 allowed Bush carte blanche to do as he pleases, e.g. Patriot Act. I'll leave that topic there, becuase you guys get touchy about it.

as for the recession, that is relatively partyless, and also largely down to the lending companies allowing stupid finances, its also not just an american flaw, its the entire developed worlds fault, for wreckless spending, so that I retract.

As for the last bit, that's cool, i did not know that. it's interesting.

Don't be condescending and pretend like I'm an uneducated fool. Republicans are similar to Conservatives, really? Who would have guessed that? Thank God not all Republicans think alike. Some of us are even, I don't know if I should dare say it, PROGRESSIVE!

It's common sense that spending cannot increase with tax cuts. Any non ignoramus can see the problems that will create without the use Joseph Smith's seer stone and hat. You know what? There were Republicans critical of the President from their own party! Might that be called thinking for your self? I've never been a Bush supporter and felt like he was handed the 2000 nomination over better candidates (not good ones, just better). I've never towed a party line that doesn't satisfy my own criticism first and if more fools in congress could show the same criticism of their own party leadership *gasp* transparency and trust might begin to trickle into a bloated government that has been ailing from the same petty BS for far to long.

It wasn't a question in case you didnt get the semantics, its because although you may be familiar with your 80's history, you may not be familiar with OUR 80's history. the point of that paragraph was that Margaret Thatcher and EVERY British conservative before AND after STILL hasnt grasped the concept that it doesnt work, that was a criticism of British Tories, NOT you or americans. but good for you, for not supporting Bush, Im AMAZED he wasn't impeached, and how blindly everyone ignored the MASSIVE fraud against the nation. But as I say they did it very well, just not well enough to NOT get caught.

I'm not sure how my previous comment made me uneducated and yes it was direct. Much better to be direct then beat around the bush making agonizingly neutral statements like a Canadian (I love you Canada thank you for tolerating me for so long). If your concern is American government interfering with your own I think that is an issue to take up with your own leadership. If the British PM doesn't have the balls to tell someone to f**k off I wouldn't respect them either. I value the lives of your boys as much as my own so please don't minimize my friends that are risking their lives while doing their job and compare it to something that is the equivalent of looking for the Easter Bunny.

I am very educated about the nature and histories of both parties. I don't know how you can make the assumption that I don't. Check out Bull Moose. If you want to talk about past evils look up which party it was that supported slavery, you might be surprised.

Who is Conway Twitty? I have a ridiculously large music collection and I am stumped. If he is some sort of pop country musician that parades around with a Ford logo on his guitar then I would have no idea who he is. More of a CCR guy, love Ryan Adams too. You are very perceptive, .45's are the best!!!

1) i dont get what Canada has to do with it, maybe i missed something.

2) I was, I criticised Blair heavily for whimsically committing us to war.

3) Don't pretend you have any more friends out there than anyone else, I've lost 1 friend out there, 1 other class mate, and I have 2 more friends still out there and 1 who was thankfully demobilised. nearly EVERYONE knows someone, talking about it doesnt = uncaring, i can also NOT agree with why we're there without somehow wishing harm to all involved. also we should not pretend we're out there righting wrongs, or solving injustices, North Korea / China's oppression over Tibet, Zimbabwe's tyrrany... if ONLY they had oil and maybe we'd care.

and yes I do indeed know that Abraham Lincoln, was a REPUBLICAN and VERY AGAINST SLavery... republicans are NOT evil, I get it, I also never said it. Republicans HAVE done good, I am sure, but right now, Republicans have done themselves a LOT of harm, and the democrats, while also not perfect because hey guess what THEY'RE A POLITICAL PARTY, is the lesser of two evils.

Conway Twitty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_Twitty

country and western singer, kinda cheesy... i only know who he is through family guy, im more of a classic rock person, it just sounded funny.

.45 is indeed superior, and Ryan Adams does in-deed rock, no-one knows who he is when i talk about him.

Yes I am patriotic but that in no way implies that I am blind or an idiot. Show me where I gave praise. I didn't, you merely implied it because I decried the gross generalization of people who align themselves with the ideals of Republicanism (maybe you were only referring to the Reps. themselves but that is not they way your statement read). The Democrats are not angels and saviors of humanity they pretend to be. They just had a brush with some election fraud of their own in Minnesota, not to say it wasn't shady as hell on both sides.

After all that I guess what I'm trying to say is I just don't like it when my principles get attacked in a forum criticizing communism/fascism when they couldn't be more polar

I was referring to the Reps themselves, but I can see why that was misconstrued it was not clear.

I also wasnt trying to call either party fascist or communist.

I have enjoyed this, it's nice to finally have an intelligent conversation with someone who has an interesting opinion to share, who also knows how to have a debate. Thank you