THE TRENT WAR --- a new campaign!

[Axeslammer]

I finally installed this campaign (giving up my current Armoured Princess run).

To my disappointment I get an immediate crash if I try to play as (my favourite) Mage

Paladin appears to work, so I'll try that.

[raknefne]

Originally Posted by Axeslammer

I finally installed this campaign (giving up my current Armoured Princess run).
To my disappointment I get an immediate crash if I try to play as (my favourite) Mage
Paladin appears to work, so I'll try that.

That must be an installation issue or windows or? There has not been such a problem before... have you tried more than 1 time, is it when u start 'NEW GAME' it crashes?

Have you been modding in the original game? because my mod loads this first, then overwrite with Trent. If this is the case, then reinstall the original game.

BTW this is a mod based on ORCS ON THE MARSH, if you dont have this installation, you will have problems since the mod overwrites these files but also need the ones I havent touched...

hope it helps

[Sirlancelot]

Originally Posted by raknefne

That must be an installation issue or windows or? There has not been such a problem before... have you tried more than 1 time, is it when u start 'NEW GAME' it crashes?

Have you been modding in the original game? because my mod loads this first, then overwrite with Trent. If this is the case, then reinstall the original game.

BTW this is a mod based on ORCS ON THE MARSH, if you dont have this installation, you will have problems since the mod overwrites these files but also need the ones I havent touched...

hope it helps

Yes, but just for him to know, Crossworlds includes both Orcs on the marsh and Armored Princess, hence simply having Crossworlds is enough.

[raknefne]

I have changed the Paladin skill 'Glory' to Leadership 100-450-900 (was 100-350-700). Mind Runes 5-7-9 ( was 6-7-8 ). Is it enough, would u sometimes develop it?

Wonder about the Mage medal 'Fire Mage' if it is ok with Fire Arrow, Shroud, Hell Fire and Fireball. $?!?
Could be other name than FireMage, 'Magician', with more used spells like Fire Arrow, Poison Scull, Ice Snake, call of nature and Slow (mage has 3 of the spells from start). I noticed I often cast FireArrow just for the medal and nothing else,
with the Slow, Poison Scull included I will probably less think of medalling and just play (I hope).
It is also possible to make Ice Snake and Call of Nature count as double. That can be done with other expensive spells too: Life light, Divine armor, awake dragon...

Any comments on Warrior and Paladin spells to use for the medals (Iron Knight / Holy Knight)?

I'll leave the paladin bonus for Holy Knight as it is for now.

With the new changes, all hero classes can start working on medals from the start. The Warrior had to develop Distortion fast to start working on medals, and often it was spells you didnt need, just for the medals, like Berserker etc.

- it is sort of lame or zombie-like casting spells just for medals and nothing else...

[Sirlancelot]

Originally Posted by raknefne

I have changed the Paladin skill 'Glory' to Leadership 100-450-900 (was 100-350-700). Mind Runes 5-7-9 ( was 6-7-8 ). Is it enough, would u sometimes develop it?

Wonder about the Mage medal 'Fire Mage' if it is ok with Fire Arrow, Shroud, Hell Fire and Fireball. $?!?
Could be other name than FireMage, 'Magician', with more used spells like Fire Arrow, Poison Scull, Ice Snake, call of nature and Slow (mage has 3 of the spells from start). I noticed I often cast FireArrow just for the medal and nothing else,
with the Slow, Poison Scull included I will probably less think of medalling and just play (I hope).
It is also possible to make Ice Snake and Call of Nature count as double. That can be done with other expensive spells too: Life light, Divine armor, awake dragon...

Any comments on Warrior and Paladin spells to use for the medals (Iron Knight / Holy Knight)?

I'll leave the paladin bonus for Holy Knight as it is for now.

With the new changes, all hero classes can start working on medals from the start. The Warrior had to develop Distortion fast to start working on medals, and often it was spells you didnt need, just for the medals, like Berserker etc.

- it is sort of lame or zombie-like casting spells just for medals and nothing else...

Well, I actually like (love) to cast Berserker sometimes, its usefulness is very situational but when it does the job as intended is both funny and lethal.

But yes, the selection of spells you mention are more reasonable.

Glory tier three granting 900 leadership is more appealing, yes. Although I would raise that quantity a bit more, up to 1000. As a level 21 paladin now I'm getting around 325-350 points of leadership per level already, and the rune cost for Glory level three is 21 mind runes.

[raknefne]

Trent version 1.5:
=================

- Different small adjustments
- Pet dragon's Mystic Egg only has 1 rest now.
- Pet dragon's Lava only has 1 rest now, but same startprice as vanilla, 35 Rage, it was lowered in earlier Trents, but instead with no rest.
- Paladin skill 'Glory': Leadership 150-450-950 (was 100-350-700). Mind Runes 5-7-9 ( was 6-7-8 ).

Medals - u can see pictures of some of the changes in Post no. #2:
- 'Magician' (former 'Fire Mage' for the Mage): New spells for the medal; 'Flaming Arrow', 'Poison Skull', 'Call of Nature', 'Ice Snake' and 'Slow'.
- 'Iron Knight' (warrior): The spells needed are now: 'Haste', 'Precision', 'Battle Cry' and 'Awaken Dragon'.
- 'Holy Knight' (Paladin): The spells needed are now: 'Healing', 'Peacefulness', 'Bless' and 'Holy Light'.
- A larger amount of spells needed for each hero class for medal leveling.
- 'Grand Strategy', now called 'Pirate Slayer': No longer measures 'no loss', instead numbers of enemy pirates slain. Gives Leadership 100-250-500. This is to help player use other strategies than always using strong units for 'no loss'.
- 'Treasure Searcher': 3-6-9% experience (was 3-5-7 but more chests to find for reward than earlier Trent).

Items:
- Farmer Set bug fixed: Didnt give +1 Mana per round, fixed.

Spells:
- Poison spit: Same damage as vanilla, but poison chance higher and duration 4,5,6. Mana 6-8-10.
- Stone Rain: Area 3-7-19. Mana 10-22-35 (was 30-35-45 vanilla)

[raknefne]

I had some fun with v1.5, was losing part of a stack, useally I'd start thinking of reloading or accepting the loss... then I realized it doesn't matter so much any more... with the Grand Strategian transformed into Pirate Slayer. Time will show about if we need to adjust Pirate Slayer, it is 75-250-600 pirates to slay for the medal. Ofc higher difficulties will spawn more troops, so it is easier to get the medal on higher difficulties.

I found the Fjong-Fjong hat for 10k, and extracted 19k from it, good deal... wonder if the set bonus is too strong or? ... I posted pics of the set a few posts back. The Hula-Hula Set...

[Axeslammer]

Originally Posted by raknefne

That must be an installation issue or windows or? There has not been such a problem before... have you tried more than 1 time, is it when u start 'NEW GAME' it crashes?

Yep NEW GAME, after selecting Mage, a new name and difficulty and pushing start...it gave a stack error (without a number or message).

I have tried it several times.

Originally Posted by raknefne

Have you been modding in the original game? because my mod loads this first, then overwrite with Trent. If this is the case, then reinstall the original game.

Nope this is a clean install (redsands was on previous pc).

Originally Posted by raknefne

BTW this is a mod based on ORCS ON THE MARSH, if you dont have this installation, you will have problems since the mod overwrites these files but also need the ones I havent touched...

Yep, I have that installed.

Originally Posted by raknefne

hope it helps

Unfortunately it doesn't.

I do have to give you a HUGE compliment though for an excellent campaign so far (Í'm halfway through the second Island) : I love it !

It's so much more dense, difficicult than the original...and I'm constantly in need of troops, that's a new thing for me too.

I love the simple solutions/for timing on quests you've implemented, like gather 15 thornsprouts. Simple, efficient....and extremely elegant : me like

[raknefne]

I'm glad u enjoy it!!! About crash, could it be a antivirus program? Have u tried cleaning for malware etc? I have not heard of this crash before.

About. Runemage: I will add other skills so all can develop it. Could add 1-2 runemages to hire in castle lower TRENT? No leadership lowering? No other changes? I guess I Will keep skill price as vanilla, u need other runes like ur hero to develop it. U get them at the monk.

Awake dragon: playing warrior now. It is a very strong spell. 13 Mana? Was 10. I can use it to level pet. Casting awake dragon then Mana Ball, repeat...

[Sirlancelot]

Originally Posted by raknefne

About. Runemage: I will add other skills so all can develop it. Could add 1-2 runemages to hire in castle lower TRENT? No leadership lowering? No other changes? I guess I Will keep skill price as vanilla, u need other runes like ur hero to develop it. U get them at the monk.

Awake dragon: playing warrior now. It is a very strong spell. 13 Mana? Was 10. I can use it to level pet. Casting awake dragon then Mana Ball, repeat...

Perfect. Hmm, I'm not sure if that's a good idea, you already get a level 5 unit after defeating Bill the Legend in Sprudne Islands. Let it be random.

With the Archmage skill maxed out, Runemage leadership is reduced to 1500. That should be enough, I think. Remember we already set Destruction talent reloading time to 2 (one less than vanilla), and raised their attack +5. I'm using WoTN attack and defense as a reference, though. (+10 attack and +2 defense instead of +5 /+0 (Trent current version) and +0/+0 (Crossworlds vanilla)

From Vigaroe:

Rune Mage (Crossworlds version)
Level: 5
Hiring Cost: 15,000
Leadership: 2000
Attack/Defense: 35 / 44
Initiative/Speed: 5 / 3
Health: 450
Damage: 40-55 Magical/Physical
Resistances: 50% Magic
Talents: Destruction (Reload: 2. Does Astral damage to everything in a straight line, with the damage increasing by 10% for each unused Might Rune the player is carrying), Revive (Charge: 1. Heals a single ally stack for 100 HP per Rune Mage in the casting stack, gaining 9% healing power per unused Mind Rune carried by the player. Will resurrect dead units in the stack, and additionally purges all negative effects. Healing power is also bolstered if the Hero has points in Resurrection), Illusion (Reload: 3. Generates a clone of a randomly chosen enemy that is Level 1-3. If there are no such enemies, generates a stack of Angelic Guard instead. Either way, the size of the stack is 500 Leadership, with Magic Runes increasing the Leadership number by 5% per unused one carried by the player)
Abilities: Persistence of Mind (Immunity to mental effects), Favorite Enemy, High Mage (+1 Morale to Priests, Inquisitors, and Archmages), Runic (50% Magic resist), Runic Armor (Damage increases with unused Might Runes. Health increases with unused Mind Runes. Additionally, the Rune Mage's ranged attack has a chance to inflict a debuff on enemies, the chance of which rises with unused Magic Runes and the exact spell changes based on the number)

Behold! One of the most complicated units in the entire series! (And the new Human unit for Orcs on the March)

Quick aside: strangely, the game doesn't give Rune Mages an explicit Ability to indicate they're a ranged unit, but they nonetheless are. Their effective range is 7, which can be a bit unintuitive due to being an Archmage reskin, but between their above-average Speed and 7 being a plenty good range they usually don't have to worry. Especially since they prefer to contribute with their Talents anyway.

I think the idea of the Rune Mage is very very interesting, but in practice it's burdened by problems. The Rune Mage is fairly opaque to use, for one, but most critical is how it's clearly scaled to only be all that great if you have lots of unused Runes, which is something you should be avoiding if possible. Maybe they're viable in the endgame, when you're running out of Skills to spend your Runes on, but for a long, long time they're just going to be this neat unit that's really questionable to actually use.

Also, they're heinously expensive to hire.

One odd quirk of Destruction is that you inexplicably can't target Gremlins with it, but they nonetheless can be hit by its line of damage.

Regardless, as allies Rune Mages can actually be serviceable just on the basis of spamming Illusion to distract and stall enemies (Note that Illusions summons last until destroyed, and can't be wiped with a Dispel: they're not a Phantom, in spite of the Talent graphic clearly being based on Phantom), with Destruction and so on being a nice bonus. Revive purging negative effects can also be hugely notable in the early-midgame for helping you get Grand Strategy ranks by not only undoing minor casualties but wiping Burn or Poisoning in the process and thus preventing still further casualties. Only Destruction is fairly forgettable without serious Rune backing, truthfully.

As enemies, Rune Mages are... sort of obnoxious in principle, as they get to benefit from Rune scaling effects with the AI shouldering no opportunity cost for this effect, but in practice they're usually not too big a deal. They don't show up very often, they're mostly restricted to the early-midgame (As late-game islands aren't Human-using islands), and the AI just doesn't use them very well. They'll frequently open with a Destruction aimed sub-optimally, they'll aggressively waste their Revive charge much like Paladins waste their Prayer charge, and the AI just doesn't play in a way that emphasizes the utility of summons so Illusion isn't a problem. The only truly problematic thing is that they're a lot more likely to have some moderately serious negative effect attached to their ranged attack than in your hands, and if they ever get around to using it before you kill them that can be really inconvenient, but it doesn't crop up often between their behavior and the fact that it's RNG-based whether they even impose such an effect.

Ultimately the most interesting thing about Rune Mages to me is more conceptual/design-level: they're the first Human unit to be Level 5. They're also the last one, as no later game adds in a new one.

Still, they're kind of a neat idea, even if the actual execution is... odd.

Rune Wizard (WotN version)
Level: 5
Hiring Cost: 17,000
Leadership: 2000
Attack/Defense: 45 / 46
Initiative/Speed: 5 / 3
Health: 450
Damage: 50-65 Magical/Physical
Resistances: 50% Magic
Talents: Destruction (Reload: 3. Does 45-65 Astral damage to everything in a straight line, with the damage increasing by 10% for each unused Might Rune the player is carrying, to a maximum of +200%), Phantom (Charge: 1. Generates a clone of a selected unit that is below Level 5. Either way, the size of the stack is 20% of the Health of the targeted stack, with Spirit Runes increasing the Health number by 2% per unused one carried by the player to a maximum of +40% and thus a total of 60% of the targeted stack's Health), Runic Word (Charges: 3. Grants a target unit 2 Runes, distribution of Rune type randomly chosen. Every ten Magic Runes adds another Rune, to a maximum of 2 more)
Abilities: Persistence of Mind (Immunity to mental effects), Personal Enemy, High Mage (+1 Morale to Priests, Inquisitors, Archmages, and Pyromages), Runic Staff (Range: infinite. Unused Skill Runes provide increasing benefits, up to a maximum of 20 of each type. Might Runes increase base damage by 2 apiece, Spirit Runes increase Health by 10 apiece, and Magic Runes determine the effect that ranged attacks have a 30% chance of inflicting), Runic Armor (Physical resistance increases by 1% per unused Might Rune. Poison and Fire resistances increase by 1% per unused Spirit Rune. Magic and Ice resistance rises 1% per unused Magic Rune)

+10 Attack and +2 Defense, base damage has gone up 10 points, Destruction reloads slower, Phantom is no longer infinitely spammable (But you get to pick what gets summoned!) among other changes, their super-revival Talent has been replaced entirely, and their mechanics regarding unused Skill Runes have been switched up and given hard caps on their effectiveness. Also they cost 2000 more Gold, like they weren't obnoxiously expensive as-is.

The overall result is that Rune Mages no longer feel like they're balanced around the possibility of insanely high bonuses from huge piles of unused Talent Runes, and are actually pretty serviceable even if you have no unused Talent Runes. Two more indirect buffs to them are that Warriors of the North is shockingly generous with Talent Runes in general, and that the Runic Power Might Skill exists to incentive holding on to 20-ish Talent Runes past a certain point anyway. (That is, you already have a general reason to hold onto Talent Runes, and if you're indulging it Rune Mages are incidentally benefiting) A third, more indirect 'buff' is that Skill costs in Warrior of the North trend a bit higher overall, enough so that you're a lot more likely to be completely unable to afford any Skills while still having 10 or so Talent Runes lying around: back in Armored Princess it's a lot easier to spend your Talent Runes down to nothing or nearly nothing.

Those points aside, the way you use and fight them is broadly similar, aside the caveat that they can't be used to reduce/undo casualties. They're just better in player hands and less able to be irritatingly effective in AI hands. (They still get arbitrary Talent Rune boosts, just like Armored Princess, but no longer are enemy Rune Mages getting benefits that a player would pretty much never achieve)

Something worth noting is that unused Might Runes scale up Destruction's strength a little faster overall than they scale up the Rune Mage's base damage. Usually it's more important to pay attention to their respective damage types and mechanical behavior in terms of eg Destruction being a line attack, but occasionally it'll matter: don't get used to either thinking of Destruction as harder-hitting than the base attack on a given target or vice-versa, because it depends on how many Might Runes you're carting around.

While we're on a unit that performs summons of a regular unit type, a point about experience: summons don't interact with experience. If you have a Rune Wizard use Phantom on eg your Level 10 Jarl stack, the resulting Jarl stack will not contribute experience to your Jarls and will not benefit from the 9 levels your actual Jarls have, having the stats of a completely inexperienced unit. This applies to all summons, including enemy summons and non-standard unit types like eg Phoenix. This tends to be offset by the fact that summoners increase how much they summon by leveling, but when it comes to Initiative and Speed considerations it's important to keep in mind that eg a Phantom Jarl will have 3 Speed even though your high-level Jarls have 4 Speed.

Yes, Awake Dragon can be very useful and strong. For the warrior the most of course. And the more powerful you become, the more lethal. You can use it to level up your pet or to wipe out enemies through Fiery Phantoms or Ball of lightning. It becomes clearly OP at the mid and later stages of the game, when Ball of L. kills more than 20%, up to 55% of opponents hit points per hit. The fact that you can have several Balls working at the same time doesn't helps.

Ball of ligthning final stats (when fully developed; Crossworlds version)
Damage: 20%-55%
Shock chance: 50% (+30%)
Rage: 35
Experience: 46
Rest: 2
(Hits: 4 times)

Damage 1 Upgrade: Damage: + [0-5]%, chance of shock: +2%, Rage: +2, Experience: +4
Damage 2 Upgrade: Damage: + [0-7]%, chance of shock: +2%, Rage: +3, Experience: +6
Damage 3 Upgrade: Damage: + [10-15]%, chance of shock: +2%, Rage: +5, Experience: +8 Rest: 2 (Requires Level 26)

I'm not sure what would be the best way to make it less OP, though. Let me think about it.