4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[pockrtplanesairways]

Well then how come you guys haven't updated the development page to say that it'll be a new flyable? And shouldn't we be seeing the update come out in the next few months?

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by pockrtplanesairways

Shouldn't we get the cockpit for the SB-2-103?

Yes, that's coming in 4.13.

I love flying the SB-2 thanks to the quality of it's interior. The cockpit, nose gunner/bomb aimer, and the upper and lower rear gunner positions are all extremely well done. The IL-4 and PE-8 interiors are equally nice.

I didn't even get into level-bombing in IL-2 until flying these machines when their interiors became available.

Can't wait to see the M-103.

[Buster_Dee]

Originally Posted by dflion

I hope you are all furiously testing 4.13. My father is 93 years old and he flew the B24L for the RAAF in WWII Pacific. I am going to show him this aircraft (B24D) flying in the flight sim, and I will give you all a full report on his observations. My father really liked flying the B24. Thankfully my father is mentally excellent, though his old body is starting to fail?

If your father finds ANY of it acceptable, it will make up for years of pain building it

Since copilot is being implemented, what a hoot it would be to have you both take her for a spin.

[Pursuivant]

For all marks of the La-5, and any other plane where the pilot had the option of manually or remotely charging (i.e., cocking) the guns, there should be the possibility of eliminating "gun damage" results by recocking the guns to eject damaged shells, at least for hits to the ammo trays. The problem there is that the game would have to distinguish between hits to ammunition and ammo containers, and hits to the gun itself which it currently doesn't.

Any plane capable of recocking its guns should have a chance to overcome a "gun jammed" result by ejecting dud shells. This would be easier to implement, since it doesn't require any changes to DM, just binding a key for the new command and a small routine which gives the player some chance to fix the jam the first time, and progressively worse chances for repeated attempts.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Buster_Dee

If your father finds ANY of it acceptable, it will make up for years of pain building it

Since copilot is being implemented, what a hoot it would be to have you both take her for a spin.

Just the thought of that actually brought tears to my eyes, and I don't even know these guys! It's just amazing how much a few talented people have been able to wring from this old girl. I hope it goes on for a long time.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For all marks of the La-5, and any other plane where the pilot had the option of manually or remotely charging (i.e., cocking) the guns, there should be the possibility of eliminating "gun damage" results by recocking the guns to eject damaged shells, at least for hits to the ammo trays. The problem there is that the game would have to distinguish between hits to ammunition and ammo containers, and hits to the gun itself which it currently doesn't.

Any plane capable of recocking its guns should have a chance to overcome a "gun jammed" result by ejecting dud shells. This would be easier to implement, since it doesn't require any changes to DM, just binding a key for the new command and a small routine which gives the player some chance to fix the jam the first time, and progressively worse chances for repeated attempts.

I know what you mean with this but I think this would be useful in cases where the gun has actually jammed (perhaps due to overheating or reliability issues) which isn't in IL-2 1946 right now. The guns jammed is really because the gun mechanism or the barrel was "destroyed".

So what we'd need first is reliability type things (length of firing duration, heating, etc.) implemented and then another mechanism to unjam them.

Which I suppose could all be done.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I know what you mean with this but I think this would be useful in cases where the gun has actually jammed (perhaps due to overheating or reliability issues) which isn't in IL-2 1946 right now. The guns jammed is really because the gun mechanism or the barrel was "destroyed".

I agree that there's really no good way to realistically model gun damage in IL2, largely because it would have to dynamically track ammo in ammo trays. Given the work that would entail, it would be effort better spent to model fuel transfer and dynamic CoG.

The second issue I mentioned is a bit more doable, since occasionally you'll get a gun jam result without damage, especially if you shoot in a high G turn. To my mind, that indicates a simple stoppage which could potentially be cleared.

IL2 doesn't model gun stoppage due to gun overheat. You can hold down the trigger all day (at least with unlimited ammo) and the guns will keep shooting.

What IL2 could possibly do, although it would require lots of DM work, is distinguish between the gun and feed mechanisms and the ammo supply. Once you've got that modeled, you can then have three types of gun hits: "Gun destroyed," "delayed gun destroyed" or "jam."

Gun destroyed represents an unfixable hit to the gun or ammo feed mechanisms which instantly renders the weapon unusable.

Delayed gun destroyed represents damage to ammunition or ammo feed mechanisms which will make the gun stop working at some point in the future. Basically, you lose some percentage of your remaining ammo, or the gun stops working after x more seconds of shooting. There might be a small chance that you could unjam such a problem.

Jam represents a simple stoppage, or a damaged bullet which can be fixed by recharging the guns.

While it might not be best practice, the quick(ish) and dirty method of getting more accuracy in gun hits would be to just assign percentages to each kind of hit, perhaps based on bullet type.

For example, a hit by a heavy MG bullet might have a 60% chance of a gun destroyed result, 35% chance of delayed gun destroyed, an 5% chance of stoppage, while a light MG bullet might have a 40% chance of gun destroyed, 25% chance of delayed gun destroyed and 35% chance of stoppage. No actual data for any of these things, though, I'm making up numbers here.

Originally Posted by IceFire

So what we'd need first is reliability type things (length of firing duration, heating, etc.) implemented and then another mechanism to unjam them.

A bit of research shows that the problem of overheating is actually hugely overrated - at least for WW2 and later aircraft weapons. I know that this is contrary to popular wisdom, but bear with me.

Realistically, an airplane just doesn't carry enough ammo for the barrel to overheat to the point where it destroys the barrel. Machine gun manuals since WW2 are pretty consistent that you can shoot for up to a minute on full auto before you need to change the barrel. But, most aircraft only carry enough ammo for 5-30 seconds of full auto fire. So, in most cases, you don't have enough ammo to overheat the gun. (That said, for optimum barrel life, gunners tried to keep their bursts short - 2-3 seconds normally, 6-9 seconds maximum.)

Second, the steel used to make the barrels is designed to stay tough at up to thousands of degrees C, and there actually isn't enough energy generated by the bullets and propellants to melt the barrel. There's a huge difference between abusing the gun to the level that the barrel needs to be replaced and abusing it to the point that you blow up the gun or physically melt the barrel.

As an example:

[IceFire]

Interesting. I had always read about how pilots were told to fire in short bursts... not because it was better for aiming but for the barrels themselves. Maybe it was for preserving them over service use rather than in combat stoppage... I don't know.

Anyways, I think it's good and interesting stuff to think about.

[stugumby]

Primary cause of mg stoppages is failure to extract,then failure to feed. M2 50 cal is known to heat up and rip the rim off the cartridge case, bolt goes back case gets rim ripped away and fails to extract. Next cartridge is already removed from link and gets shoved into hole from previous casing stuck in chamber. Now fails to feed,you can try to recharge but not gonna work since rimless brass can't be extracted. Will need ruptured casing tool and remove barell to fix.
M2 fires from a closed not open bolt.

[KG26_Alpha]

I have asked many times for Mg's and cannon to be modeled more historically, after the bomb loadouts were messed about with the fighters weapons were never "corrected" you can currently unload all mg's with no penalty.

Cheers