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  #611  
Old 06-29-2014, 07:57 PM
majorfailure majorfailure is offline
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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Finally, AI crew seem far too ready to bail out of planes with any sort of control damage, despite the fact that losing rudder authority, and possibly even elevator authority, doesn't make a plane unflyable. At the very least, AI crews which lose rudder control, and possibly horizontal stabilizer control, should try to fly back to friendly territory before they bail out.
IMHO AI should try to asses the damage and consider flying to friendly territiory in these situations, given the plane is still controlable enough.
Maybe even try to land with rudder or aileron gone.

And keep testing the DM's - explains a lot of strange things happening.
(I always thought in an IL-2 you were invulnerable to machinegun fire. Till recently got shot&wounded by a Bf110 gunner. )
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  #612  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:03 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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I finally got a chance to abuse the P-38, specifically the P-38H.

Thanks to TD's recent rework of this plane, it DM actually isn't that bad, although it is still far too vulnerable to control and machine gun hits.

There are no gaps between the armor glass and the armor plate - if a .303 bullet hits the armor glass, it gets stopped. If it hits armor plate, it gets stopped.

Fuel tank hits by single rifle caliber bullets actually seal after 30-60 seconds. Hits by multiple rifle caliber bullets in the same place will quickly cause a fire, but that's not unreasonable if one of the bullets is explosive or incendiary.

The engine damage model looks good - a bullet that hits the oil cooler or radiator will cause a leak, bullets that come close but miss don't. Once a leak starts, you get several minutes of flying time before overheat, and about 5 minutes of flying time before the engine starts to really suffer. You lose some power due to engine hits, but not much. It seems like it takes a LOT of damage to make an engine stop cold.

If anything, engine durability is a bit too generous; more along the lines of the P-39 than the P-40. But, at least you can lose power and actually damage the engine due to overheating, unlike the P-39.


But, here are the problems.

Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs.

The only way I can explain it is that the game doesn't take the presence of full fuel tanks into account when determining bullet trajectories. That is, it counts fuel tanks as "empty space" rather than being filled with liquid which will slow or stop a bullet.

Likewise, the game doesn't take into account that there are layers of aluminum between a hit to the leading edge of the wing and the trailing edge, which might slow a small caliber bullet or a bit of shrapnel, or make it shatter.

Machine Gun Hits - At face value, it seems like good damage modeling to have any hit to the P-38's guns cause a jam. There's a lot of guns and ammo packed into the P-38's nose, and no armor plate in front of them or to the side, so any bullet hitting that area is likely to cause some sort of problem.

But, most of that space is taken up with ammunition. That means that there's a fair chance you'll get just one or two rounds of ammunition that are damaged by the passing bullet. This might cause an immediate jam the bullet deforms the feed chutes or ammo containers sufficiently that the bullets can't advance, but it's more likely to just create a dud bullet which will cause a jam at some time in the future.

So, for just about any hit to ammo runs by shrapnel and small caliber bullets, there should be the possibility of a) immediate stoppage/dead gun, b) unfixable stoppage after X amount of the gun's remaining ammo is fired, c) fixable stoppage after X amount of gun's remaining ammo is fired.

Hits by big bullets, explosions, and large pieces of shrapnel should create a very high chance of immediate unfixable stoppage, but with a tiny chance of the other two possibilities.

Edit: There's also two more options:

d) No effective damage. That is, the bullet hits some part of the bullet feed mechanisms or magazines which aren't currently occupied by ammunition, or otherwise manages to pass through the vital area without doing any serious damage. For example, if you shoot 50% of your ammo, and then you get a machine gun hit, the game currently treats it identically to a hit on the ammunition before you fired a shot, even though there's a 50% chance that the bullet actually just hit empty space.

e) Bang! Some sort of ammo explosion. This is extremely unlikely, even for cannon shells, but it could happen. To complicate fuel fires for tanks close to ammunition magazines, there's also the possibility of a fire causing bullets or shells to "cook off" - exploding due to heat.

A final problem which appears to be unique to the P-38 is that you can get machine gun hits for guns which have already been knocked out. That is, if both your starboard MG get hit, and you get a third bullet into a starboard machine gun, the DM counts it as a hit to a port-side machine gun!

Supercharger Hits - IL2 doesn't model supercharger damage. The P-38's turbocharger is mounted on top of the engine, with a very vulnerable flywheel protected by just an aluminum deflector and a tiny bit of armor plate on the inner side of the engines - mostly designed to keep flywheel blades from hitting the pilot. I got a few hits which realistically would have really wrecked the supercharger.

Engine Control Hits: The P-38, like other multi-engined planes had cable runs to the engine, which control things like radiator louvers, prop pitch and throttle. They're right behind the reserve fuel tanks in the inboard wing and are ripe targets for damage to the wing. But, IL2 doesn't model such things.

Here are pictures of the carnage:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

The obligatory picture of long-range sniper shots by the Ace Wellington III gunners. Two hits, two machine guns down. Typically, flying the P-38 as an interceptor results in your losing half your guns in the first few attack runs!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same flight a few seconds later. Notice a bit of engine damage to the port engine, but also another couple of bullets in the nose that took out another machine gun. The problem is, none of those bullets could have taken out the remaining two starboard machine guns, or their ammo reservoirs!

So, still 300 m out on my first attack run and I've lost 3/4 of my machine guns!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same attack run, closer in. Crummy screenshot due to a pilot kill. Unless you go straight in at an enemy bomber the P-38 is a flying coffin because the gunners not unreasonably aim directly at the plane's center of mass; which is the cockpit.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the PK, which I think was fair. I chose this one because I think it illustrates how easy it is to get control hits. None of the bullets came anyplace close to hitting the control runs. (Damage to the nose would have had to penetrate 1/4 to 3/8 inch - 6-10 mm - of armor plate to hit the rudder pedals or rudder pedals in the cockpit.) Furthermore, the P-38 has twin rudders, and virtually all of the damage is to plane's port side.

Realistically, assuming that just one cable run was severed, you'd get just the port side rudder fluttering or jammed, but the starboard rudder might still work. It would have to be remarkable luck or skill for less than a dozen .303 bullets to completely disable the plane's rudder control!
Attached Images
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Last edited by Pursuivant; 06-30-2014 at 05:51 AM.
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  #613  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:09 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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I finally got a chance to abuse the P-38, specifically the P-38H.

Thanks to TD's recent rework of this plane, it DM actually isn't that bad, although it is still far too vulnerable to control and machine gun hits.

There are no gaps between the armor glass and the armor plate - if a .303 bullet hits the armor glass, it gets stopped. If it hits armor plate, it gets stopped.

Fuel tank hits by single rifle caliber bullets actually seal after 30-60 seconds. Hits by multiple rifle caliber bullets in the same place will quickly cause a fire, but that's not unreasonable if one of the bullets is explosive or incendiary.

The engine damage model looks good - a bullet that hits the oil cooler or radiator will cause a leak, bullets that come close but miss don't. Once a leak starts, you get several minutes of flying time before overheat, and about 5 minutes of flying time before the engine starts to really suffer. You lose some power due to engine hits, but not much. It seems like it takes a LOT of damage to make an engine stop cold.

If anything, engine durability is a bit too generous; more along the lines of the P-39 than the P-40. But, at least you can lose power and actually damage the engine due to overheating, unlike the P-39.


But, here are the problems.

Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs.

The only way I can explain it is that the game doesn't take the presence of full fuel tanks into account when determining bullet trajectories. That is, it counts fuel tanks as "empty space" rather than being filled with liquid which will slow or stop a bullet.

Likewise, the game doesn't take into account that there are layers of aluminum between a hit to the leading edge of the wing and the trailing edge, which might slow a small caliber bullet or a bit of shrapnel, or make it shatter.

Machine Gun Hits - At face value, it seems like good damage modeling to have any hit to the P-38's guns cause a jam. There's a lot of guns and ammo packed into the P-38's nose, and no armor plate in front of them or to the side, so any bullet hitting that area is likely to cause some sort of problem.

But, most of that space is taken up with ammunition. That means that there's a fair chance you'll get just one or two rounds of ammunition that are damaged by the passing bullet. This might cause an immediate jam the bullet deforms the feed chutes or ammo containers sufficiently that the bullets can't advance, but it's more likely to just create a dud bullet which will cause a jam at sometime in the future.

So, for just about any hit to ammo runs by shrapnel and small caliber bullets, there should be the possibility of a) immediate stoppage/dead gun, b) unfixable stoppage after X amount of the gun's ammo is fired, c) fixable stoppage after X amount of gun's ammo is fired.

Hits by big bullets, explosions, and large pieces of shrapnel should create a very high chance of immediate unfixable stoppage, but with a tiny chance of the other two possibilities.

A final problem which appears to be unique to the P-38 is that you can get machine gun hits for guns which have already been knocked out. That is, if both your starboard MG get hit, and you get a third bullet into a starboard machine gun, the DM counts it as a hit to a port-side machine gun!

Supercharger Hits - IL2 doesn't model supercharger damage. The P-38's turbocharger is mounted on top of the engine, with a very vulnerable flywheel protected by just an aluminum deflector and a tiny bit of armor plate on the inner side of the engines - mostly designed to keep flywheel blades from hitting the pilot. I got a few hits which realistically would have really wrecked the supercharger.

Engine Control Hits: The P-38, like other multi-engined planes had cable runs to the engine, which control things like radiator louvers, prop pitch and throttle. They're right behind the reserve fuel tanks in the inboard wing and are ripe targets for damage to the wing. But, IL2 doesn't model such things.

Here are pictures of the carnage:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

The obligatory picture of long-range sniper shots by the Ace Wellington III gunners. Two hits, two machine guns down. Typically, flying the P-38 as an interceptor results in your losing half your guns in the first few attack runs!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same flight a few seconds later. Notice a bit of engine damage to the port engine, but also another couple of bullets in the nose that took out another machine gun. The problem is, none of those bullets could have taken out the remaining two starboard machine guns, or their ammo reservoirs!

So, still 300 m out on my first attack run and I've lost 3/4 of my machine guns!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same attack run, closer in. Crummy screenshot due to a pilot kill. Unless you go straight in at an enemy bomber the P-38 is a flying coffin because the gunners not unreasonably aim directly at the plane's center of mass; which is the cockpit.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the PK, which I think was fair. I chose this one because I think it illustrates how easy it is to get control hits. None of the bullets came anyplace close to hitting the control runs. (Damage to the nose would have had to penetrate 1/4 to 3/8 inch - 6-10 mm - of armor plate to hit the rudder pedals or rudder pedals in the cockpit.) Furthermore, the P-38 has twin rudders, and virtually all of the damage is to plane's port side.

Realistically, assuming that just one cable run was severed, you'd get just the port side rudder fluttering or jammed, but the starboard rudder might still work. It would have to be remarkable luck or skill for less than a dozen .303 bullets to completely disable the plane's rudder control!
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  #614  
Old 06-30-2014, 03:06 AM
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TexasJG TexasJG is offline
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This may be an old bug report, but I think the heavy cruisers class ship radar's are inoperative in 4.12.2.
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  #615  
Old 06-30-2014, 08:56 AM
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TexasJG TexasJG is offline
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Default Lerche-III Variometer / Ultra-Sound Altimeter

Could be another old bug, but at sometime the position point for the look down view ("Toggle Gunsight") in the Lerche_III has been changed. So it it now not possible to see the Variometer / ultra-sound altimeter. Which fairly much makes it impossible to land in a chosen spot, or at all.
Are there and modes which will move the view back or down a little as a work around for now?

Last edited by TexasJG; 06-30-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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  #616  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:09 PM
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Igo kyu Igo kyu is offline
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One thing that annoys me is the iron sights to the right of the reflector sights in some soviet aircraft have a spurious random pixel that is dark when it should be transparent. It is as if the rounded off corner was cleared except for the very corner pixel, which for some reason was left dark. It sometimes flickers a bit as the sight moves on the screen, but it's very much there.

This is in code version 4.07, on a 1920 x 1200 pixel screen, any of which may be relevant I suppose.
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  #617  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:34 PM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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No pictures today, just a few more bug reports.

Wellington III - The nose and tail turret gunners don't pivot their turrets back into line with the plane's long axis before bailing out.

While you CAN bail out of the plane by turning the turret to the side and just going out through the turret entry doors, there's just one problem; Wellington nose and tail gunners (or any gunner in the Boulton-Paul turret) didn't wear parachutes!

For this reason, gunners were carefully cautioned to make sure the entry doors to their turrets were carefully closed!



Realistically, Wellington gunners should try to pivot their turrets back in line with the plane's fuselage, then spend several (like 10+ seconds) getting out of the turret, running for their parachutes, and buckling them on, before bailing out.

There's also the complication for just about any electrical or hydraulically powered turret that in some cases turret power depends on engine power. That means that engine damage might prevent the turret from rotating back into position.

Then, there's also the gunner's nightmare of not being able to get the turret back into position so that he can exit, or having fire or g-forces between him and his parachute. Plenty of Avenger, Defiant, Wellington, Lancaster tail gunners died that way.

Additionally, you'll sometimes get a hero/idiot who stays at his guns even after the bailout order has been given.

Finally, there's the complication that damage to the intercom system could prevent crew from knowing that the bailout order had been given. That means that the flight deck crew might bail out, but the guys in the rear of the plane never get the message.

A6M7-63 - Just a few rifle-caliber bullets will create massive fuel tank leaks which will run the plane out of fuel in just a few minutes if they don't start a fire first. Self-sealing measures seem to totally fail, and the rate of fuel loss seems to be much higher than for other planes with the same damage.

Ace bomber formations in the QMB - Just about any Ace bomber formation seems to have trouble holding its formation. Trailing planes will fall out of formation when the formation is attacked, and they often collide while maneuvering. By contrast, Rookie AI is much better, since at least the planes don't collide.

Multi-crew player-controlled planes - If the pilot of a single-pilot plane is killed, at least in some planes (specifically the A-20C, and a few others I've forgotten), the rest of the crew doesn't automatically bail out. I guess it could be possible for the player to hit Ctrl-C to switch to a new crew position and then order the bailout, but that seems a bit silly.

While it's mostly eye candy for offliners, since a dead pilot on a player-controlled plane basically means "end of mission, time to refly/respawn", AI crewmen should automatically try to bail out when the pilot is killed. I guess it might make a difference if anyone is keeping track of overall crew casualties in multi-player servers/campaigns.
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  #618  
Old 07-01-2014, 09:50 PM
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Tempest123 Tempest123 is offline
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"Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs."

Totally agree about this on more than a few planes, single bullets taking out ailerons and rudders etc. Hitting exactly the cable or rod would be possible but rare, probably more common to have Flak damage the sheet metal and jam the control surface.
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  #619  
Old 07-01-2014, 10:07 PM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest123 View Post
Totally agree about this on more than a few planes, single bullets taking out ailerons and rudders etc. Hitting exactly the cable or rod would be possible but rare, probably more common to have Flak damage the sheet metal and jam the control surface.
Furthermore, there are exactly ZERO places on your average WW2 airplane where a single bullet - even a big one - can simultaneously wipe out rudder, ailerons and elevators, yet it happens occasionally in IL2.

You also bring up another control damage option I forgot to mention - limited range of motion for damaged control surfaces.

Currently, you have loss of control surfaces, complete loss of control of control surfaces, and partial loss of authority from control surfaces. But, you don't have limited range of motion from damaged controls, such as a rudder that you can only turn right, or which only travels through 50% of its full arc when turned to the right.
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  #620  
Old 07-02-2014, 10:26 PM
western0221 western0221 is offline
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Default T-35 multi-turret tank bug

4.12 made a new great function, multi-turret tanks.
I'm glad in this implement.

Today's bug report is T-35 tank's weapon parameters.
T-35 has 5x turrets and in 4.12 they all work.
But thier parameters are not correct.
T-35's armaments were
- 1x 75mm cannon
- 2x 45mm cannon
- 2x 7.62mm machine-gun
in historical.
In 4.12.2 , all 5x turrets are set as 75mm cannon.
Please remap armaments.
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