Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)

[MaxGunz]

About moderating speed, you might want to try an energy management approach. If you're flying too fast to make your best turn, the first thing you do is zoom climb until you've slowed to a bit over best turn speed and then do your turn on the same angle you're zooming up, flying a tilted-down loop. Once over the top you come back down, regaining the speed you stored as height in the zoom lost in the dive. You don't have to come out turned 180 either, you can roll-turn while headed up or down in the zoom or dive.

If you want to accelerate a highly wing-loaded plane (like FW) at low speed best, let it drop 50m-100m in a shallow descent while you pick up speed. The drop unloads the wings, you have less induced drag while you lose height.

Roll turn: You don't have to do a banked turn to change direction, even 180 deg. You just zoom up or down 30 deg or more and roll your canopy to point where you want to go then pull back smoothly to be on track. See how fast you can reverse, every other direction change is as fast or faster. It's the fastest way to change direction and it conserves energy.

So why play turn-fight with a slower plane that slow turn better than yours? Build up a speed advantage, turn it into zoom-height he can't reach and higher than he can point his guns and -then- maneuver to bounce once you have the upper hand.

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!

You bring up an important point, which most like to ignore, but one does end up in these situations and if you're not prepared for this - and all you get, is shot down.

So.. how does one prepare for this.. You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

You'll know when you have your man when his a/c starts wobbling or he runs away for 'advantage'

[JtD]

Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level, and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.

Mind you, the P-39 generally is very tough opposition for a 109G-6 in game. I tend to engage them only from an advantageous position, and then on my terms. Which usually involves high altitude spiral climbs. If I don't have the advantage, I'll come back with the advantage and if that's not possible, I just disengage. At sea level, it is possible to outrun all but the Q-10, so in case of emergency, I just dive for the deck and keep running.

[K_Freddie]

Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level,

That is true, but it's not the end..

and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.

As soon as you engage a slow, low turner.. you expose yourself as well.

My usual tactic is to ground hug, circling around a DF going on above.
If there is low level escape attempt (they do come down.. always).. I'm there shooting it up or shooting up the 'trailers' after a friendly. If I'm spotted and attacked, there is usually a friendly after my attacker. If it's 1-vs-1.. I'm practised in this type of flying - if my opponent is not.. they're dead meat.. or it's up to who has the best imagination.

If the DF above goes 'bottoms up'.. I warp factor outa there.. to low to be seen.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

So how hard can you turn at or very near stall speed?

Or is this advice you give to make your potential targets easy?

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Slowing down: 1st to say is don't waste your speed. Best way to slow down is to rise up!

If you are attacking at greater speed than your target but not hugely greater then use yoyo and barrel to stay behind and take occasional sniping shots.

You will fly a longer path, your speed will not take you out in front if you do this properly and yes it takes practice. Best way is to set up a mission with just you and 1 friendly plane flying waypoints around the map at less than high speed. You don't have to shoot, just practice yoyo's and wide spirals behind your leader. Do not try to stay on his tail.

in practice you take the sniping shots as much to force the target to turn -hard- as to hit him. When he does, rise and follow from above (rising slows you down, rise to your better turning speed) then when he straightens out to regain speed you drop to snipe and go back to yoyos as necessary.
When the target slows enough he will not be able to turn well without losing alt. When he runs out of alt to lose, he will turn like a sick cow and be very easy to shoot.

During all this you have the higher speed and retain the ability to rise above. Don't blow it in hard turning, that is what you want him to do.
That is the energy fighter's game. The slower plane may try the angles fight where your main game is to sucker the energy fighter into hard turns to lose his speed advantage. If his plane is poor turning -relative to yours at lower speed- then when he slows down you have a chance to get him.
I would rather have a speed advantage than flat turn advantage especially on a server with multiple enemies.

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

When you fly, are you keeping The Ball near or at center? If not, you can get more speed by doing that.

IRL you would feel when it's out (a pull to one side like when turning a car) which no sim gives. So you have to develop the habit of ruddering about enough but you can with flying practice. and spot checks on that black ball in the curved track for feedback on when you have it right. It has a minor to major effect on your speed and acceleration.

Another speed-factor is your elevator trim. Trimmed nose high, you will never get your full speed and your acceleration will suck. Trim changes with speed and power settings as it does IRL. When you want speed it's better to be trimmed a tiny bit nose down and have to pull back a teensy bit that to be trimmed nose up and have to push. But coming into tight turns you want just the opposite since you will slow down while turning and -need- more and more nose up trim!

And last for now is how hard you hold your stick (with appropriate low-humor jokes) and -not- resting the weight of your arm on the stick. In practice flight you don't need to shoot, what I was taught is to hold the stick with just 2 fingers and thumb to force myself to be a light touch on the controls. Not resting arm weight on the stick is a ***VERY*** hard habit to break. When I get it right, I maneuver much better! When I tire out and rest my hand on the stick I fly more sluggish, ham-handed.

I can't emphasize how important practicing just flying and perfecting your BCM's and ACM's and control habits is. Once you know your maneuvers well and have your habits tuned you will do better and find setting up tactics far easier.

If you could conquer this game in a month, that's all it would be worth and there wouldn't much community around it.

BTW, there are scenarios when it's stacked against you. For Russians it's worst in 41-42 and for Germans it's 44-45. If it's not the planes or lack of firepower (Early-war Russians, play as Germans first time through!) that gets you, it will be numbers. If you didn't have these, you would miss a major aspect of the historic war feeling of being the underdog.
If it gets you down then go practice flying and work on your speed and those maneuvers that failed you. Conquering maneuvers and your own habits isn't as satisfying as shooting a plane down but flying better has it's own rewards that will continue to pay past the next 100 shoot-downs.

This is so true and while it is a well known concept.. the practice takes practice. I have begun to fly around with no target.. just trying to practice keeping my speed up and using the vertical to slow down and keeping that ball as centered as possible throughout the process. It is not as simple as it sounds.

[MaxGunz]

It is not as simple as it sounds.

No it ain't Mr. Bearcat. Notta-tall.

There's too much to learn just flying maneuvers with full attention to throw in SA, tactics and pressure and expect to learn anything like as fast or well. Maneuver flying has got to be second nature just to free up mental capacity for SA and tactics at the same time. I can tell ya I'm no longer up to the full task but I'm still beyond the mudhens.

If you can get practice time online with a better flier, go for it. Many times I have been through sessions where another player would say "can you do this?" and in finally doing that I learned something. Or just play follow the leader, or try, and learn from that.

I set the view to cover the instruments and a little over the dash when practice-flying. I need to see The Ball the most as I got no feel in the sim and have to build up a set of cues to keep the rudder anywhere near right and that is *hard* without spending time now and again watching and confirming what looks and feels right even when not watching the ball. Driving without keeping one eye on the speedometer is simple by compare.

And that's where the Mustang shines in IL-2, at least with the ones than have the mini-ball in the base of the gunsight. I count that to be a major advantage and LOL! it's -historic- to have that there.
What isn't historic is sitting in a stationary chair not feeling the sideways tug of slip or G's or speed and vibration. All those disconnects and only one plane type in IL-2 lets you see that important cue while zoomed to shoot.

I posted this before when Oleg was around the forums: we need a slip gauge in the speedbar. Just a dot on a line would do, but we need that to replace the sideways-tug feeling that real pilots get. Everyone could run that and the playing field would be more level. I wonder if that's on any list DT has?
Well, devicelink is more open now too.

[Bolelas]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

I posted this before when Oleg was around the forums: we need a slip gauge in the speedbar. Just a dot on a line would do, but we need that to replace the sideways-tug feeling that real pilots get. Everyone could run that and the playing field would be more level. I wonder if that's on any list DT has?

+1
Never tought of that, and it is a great idea! Lets ask TD if they can do that on a future patch.

[K_Freddie]

BC.. I know you adore the P51. Hop along to the DCS channel... you'll never look back.
DCS is now the same story that IL2 was in 2001, but it looks like DCS will have more longevity, and will be the death knell of IL2 and CLOD (dead anyway).

[K_Freddie]

In addition to tactics, I like the slow speed model of DCS.. it so much more difficult to control, which makes it even better