Soviet fighters and 4.12

[Woke Up Dead]

Hey 1984, what's a "gargot"?

[Sita]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

Hey 1984, what's a "gargot"?

gargot = razorback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Sita

gargot = razorback

I thought that it translated as "fillet" (i.e., thin strip of material just ahead of the tailplane used to improve stability for bubble canopy planes), like was added to the P-51D-20.

When I think of a "razorback" aircraft I think of a plane like the P-47C or P-47D-10 which had a "greenhouse" (or "lantern") canopy and a very narrow rear fuselage. Arguably, the P-40 had a similar appearance.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by arrow

that is what i thought too at first and i tested it a lot - but that doesn't seem to be the cause, the fn elevator has the same authority as other versions as you can pull same accelerations at certain speeds ... What i found was that at same g turn (lets say 3g at 400 kph, level turn at 2000 m, crimea map no cockpit view) fn turns at lower aoa than any other version, in the end practically never exceeding critical aoa that will stall you. I don't recall exact numbers as i did those tests some 3 years ago and sent my report + tracks to dt. I was given the answer, that fm will be overhauled with all lavochkins at once, but i doubt it will happen any time soon ... So it would be nice to at least have current flight models inline.

:d

:p

[1984]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

Hey 1984, what's a "gargot"?

Originally Posted by Sita

gargot = razorback

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I thought that it translated as "fillet" (i.e., thin strip of material just ahead of the tailplane used to improve stability for bubble canopy planes), like was added to the P-51D-20.

When I think of a "razorback" aircraft I think of a plane like the P-47C or P-47D-10 which had a "greenhouse" (or "lantern") canopy and a very narrow rear fuselage. Arguably, the P-40 had a similar appearance.

good question and excuse me, guys, for some terminological confusion here, i just used to call, for simplicity, all planes with bubble canopy and some changes only as "without gargrot"...

correctly - "gargRot" - as far i know, it's fairing of fuselage mainly for better aerodynamics ie teardrop-shaped form and, apparently, instead "without gargrot" more correctly be "пониженнный гаргрот"/"low gargrot" because fairing just may have another form...

and gargrot it's NOT power element of construction or, apparently, fairing of canopy...

so, for example, if for yaks correctly "without gargrot" or "low gargrot" and bubble canopy, for la-5 apparently more correctly bubble canopy and another form of fuselage, etc...

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by 1984

and gargrot it's NOT power element of construction or, apparently, fairing of canopy...

That sort of cleared it up. Another web site gave a better definition.

So, if I've got my Russian aircraft terminology right:

No Gargrot = "razorback" or high rear fuselage faired into a "greenhouse" ("lantern") canopy.

Gargrot = cut-down rear fuselage with "bubble" canopy set on top of the fuselage or partially faired into it.

For example, Yak-7 = No Gargrot, but Yak-3 = Gargrot.

Do you know what the word "gargrot" means literally?

(For non-U.S. English speakers, the term "razorback" refers to a particularly nasty sort of feral pig found in the U.S. South - basically America's answer to the wild boar. The high rear fuselage of the P-47C is particularly reminiscent of this creature's back)

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Gargrot = cut-down rear fuselage with "bubble" canopy set on top of the fuselage or partially faired into it.

For example, Yak-7 = No Gargrot, but Yak-3 = Gargrot.

I understood it the opposite way: all LaGGs have gargrot, the La7 does not.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I thought that it translated as "fillet" (i.e., thin strip of material just ahead of the tailplane used to improve stability for bubble canopy planes), like was added to the P-51D-20.

When I think of a "razorback" aircraft I think of a plane like the P-47C or P-47D-10 which had a "greenhouse" (or "lantern") canopy and a very narrow rear fuselage. Arguably, the P-40 had a similar appearance.

Yeah, early P-47's were called razorbacks ... because of the rather sharp edged spine behind the canopy. Bubble canopy equipped P-47's, therefore, weren't razorbacks, just jugs. Planes in general before bubble canopies were the norm so (in the west, anyway) there really wasn't so much a a need to distinguish them from the bubble canopied version as much as identifying the new bubble version itself as something new and different.

Bubble canopies typically hurt directional stability a bit because of the turbulence (and, in the Mustang, additional canopy height) behind them but not much more, really, than going to a larger prop, let's say from a three blade propeller to a four blade, as when Mustang went from Allison to Merlin. The Mustang, having had both mods, drove work in improving directional stability although the Brits had started work on that issue earlier after testing their first (non bubble) four blade Merlin versions (some interesting test parts there).

[ElAurens]

The bubble top P51s were also slower than the "razorback" original design as well.

[1984]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

So, if I've got my Russian aircraft terminology right:

No Gargrot = "razorback" or high rear fuselage faired into a "greenhouse" ("lantern") canopy.

yes, high rear fuselage it's not fairing="gargrot" and, apparently, high rear fuselage can be called on english as "razorback"...

but, apparently, english "razorback" can mean lot of things without accounting for type design ie it's like i called - wrong, in fact, just for simplicity - all planes with bubble tops "without gagrot"...

Gargrot = cut-down rear fuselage with "bubble" canopy set on top of the fuselage or partially faired into it.

For example, Yak-7 = No Gargrot, but Yak-3 = Gargrot.

gargrot it's only fairing of main constructions, can be low (yak-1b or 3) or high ("yak-1 1941" or "yak-7 1941") ie you no quite understood and for better understanding 2 quotes on russian (sorry, and you just can find similar description on english) - description of fuselage of yak-1 ie apparently of all yaks and description of fuselage of la-5 with high rear part...

yak-1 -

Основной частью фюзеляжа является сварной металлический каркас, составляющий одно целое с моторамой, выполненный в виде пространственной фермы из труб СЗОХГСА диаметром от 20 до 50 мм. Главными элементами каркаса являются четыре лонжерона, связанные 10 рамами.

Для придания фюзеляжу обтекаемой формы сверху и снизу фермы установлены гаргроты.

Верхний гаргрот, являющийся продолжением фонаря кабины, обшит бакелитовой фанерой... Нижний гаргрот обшит полотном по стрингерам и крепится к фюзеляжу на болтах.

la-5 -

Фюзеляж состоял из металлической передней фермы и деревянного монокока, выполненного за одно целое с килем. Его каркас состоял из четырех лонжеронов и 15 шпангоутов. Фюзеляж наглухо скреплен с центропланом четырьмя стальными узлами. Кабина пилота закрыта сдвижным фонарем, стопорящимся в открытом и закрытом положениях. На шпангоуте за спинкой пилота установлена броня толщиной 8,5 мм.

Do you know what the word "gargrot" means literally?

all time i thought what it's not russian word, french or something like this, but fast search not gives clear answer... maybe, it's frech "grotte" ie cave or cavity ie place after canopy... + something like... "garçon"?...

and, in total, of course it's all only my opinion, how i understood all these things...