4.11 - AI debugging

[X-Raptor]

..It occurred to me for example in a mission where there were il2 bombing p39 defending bombers vs 190 and 109 attacing (a kursk campaign extract). I see this behaviour in more than one 109 just like you said creating a "sharp hook" at the bottom of the vertical uber-dive of A.I.s planes.

[Pursuivant]

I just noticed this:

8 Average Ki-43 III vs. a "box" of 3 Veteran B-24J in QMB. 5000m over the Okinawa map. No advantage to either side.

The Ki-43 don't make head-on shots on the initial pass and don't make high-side attacks subsequently. Instead, they go for tail-chase attacks which are much more dangerous.

Even worse, the B-24 try to act like fighters! None of them stick together in formation and I actually saw one of them doing a barrel roll. All of them will try to turn to avoid much more nimble fighters, often pulling high-G turns that have the plane "standing on its wing."

Realistically, the bombers should tighten up their formation and possibly "jink" a bit when attacked. If one gets separated, it should "corkscrew" to try to spoil the attackers' aim while rejoining formation. Also, the rest of the formation should slow down to try to protect the damaged bomber as long as possible. As it is, by trying to maneuver like fighters, they seriously reduce the accuracy of their guns and give up the coordinated firepower of the "bomber box."

In real life, the sort of high-G turns I saw would also rip the bombs off their shackles and send them through the bomb bay doors.

It seems to me that, if it isn't already in the game, TD needs to have different AI for heavy bombers and similar planes (e.g., planes like the PBN or H8K) vs. smaller and faster attack bombers. Bombers also need different behavior routines for when they're loaded vs. unloaded.

Edit: Same behavior for B-17G and B-29. And, even when the U.S. heavies are loaded with bombs!

This is even more stupid behavior for a B-29 since they have the speed to outrun the Ki-43. They shouldn't be diving, turning and trying to dogfight. Instead, they should be keeping level, tightening formation and accelerating.

[X-Raptor]

Dear pursivant , sadly ME, YOU and BEARCAT are the few other here are writing here with nonsense, as you can easly notice from DT anticipations on 4.12 release that there isn't ANY mention about correct all these A.i. bad behavior we diligently are reporting to the Daidalos Team.
They are going to release 4.12 with just other things improved... ..but IMHO way less important compared to try to resolve all this A.I. "bugs" we still notice in 4.11

[TheGrunch]

Daidalos Team have never reported bug fixes in development updates for the next patch. Wait for the readme before you complain.

[Tuco22]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Daidalos Team have never reported bug fixes in development updates for the next patch. Wait for the readme before you complain.

This.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

They are going to release 4.12 with just other things improved... ..but IMHO way less important compared to try to resolve all this A.I. "bugs" we still notice in 4.11

Respectfully, I disagree. My experience is that TD listens to the fans and works hard to correct their mistakes. Over the course of the past 3 years TD has worked hard to fix things that 1C/Maddox couldn't be arsed to fix during the previous 7-8 years of the game's existence.

As an example, the vast improvement in fighter AI in the 4.11 was literally a game-changer for me. AI fighters are a real challenge to beat, unlike before when I was routinely winning fights against entire squadrons. Bomber gunner behavior has finally been fixed to deal with the dreaded "sniper" problem.

In the upcoming 4.12 patch, there are lots of little fixes fans have asked for for years, like customized sounds, aircraft which taxi in an intelligent fashion and the ability to padlock ships. In previous patches, we've seen small fixes to things like sky appearance and 3d fixes for some of the older aircraft.

But, AI programming is tricky work, there are lots of planes in the game, lots of different missions and many different tactics. Even worse, "fixing" one aspect of AI behavior might "break" another aspect. I accept that the 4.11 AI wasn't perfect, but I'm confident that TD will fix the problem.

Anyhow, dogfighting bombers is an easy problem to fix. There's less AI programming in making a plane keep station with the other planes in formation, fly straight and level or try to run away than there is in making them try to dogfight. Even if the AI were programed so isolated bombers try to "corkscrew" or hug the ground (if flying low and no ventral gunner) it would probably still be easier to program.

More challenging for AI would be for isolated bombers to try to turn to present the most number of guns against few attacking fighters to trying to "jink" or "break" in such a way as to spoil attacks (e.g., slipping or diving just as fighter making a high-side attack starts its attack run).

[X-Raptor]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Respectfully, I disagree. My experience is that TD listens to the fans and works hard to correct their mistakes. Over the course of the past 3 years TD has worked hard to fix things that 1C/Maddox couldn't be arsed to fix during the previous 7-8 years of the game's existence.

As an example, the vast improvement in fighter AI in the 4.11 was literally a game-changer for me. AI fighters are a real challenge to beat, unlike before when I was routinely winning fights against entire squadrons. Bomber gunner behavior has finally been fixed to deal with the dreaded "sniper" problem.

In the upcoming 4.12 patch, there are lots of little fixes fans have asked for for years, like customized sounds, aircraft which taxi in an intelligent fashion and the ability to padlock ships. In previous patches, we've seen small fixes to things like sky appearance and 3d fixes for some of the older aircraft.

But, AI programming is tricky work, there are lots of planes in the game, lots of different missions and many different tactics. Even worse, "fixing" one aspect of AI behavior might "break" another aspect. I accept that the 4.11 AI wasn't perfect, but I'm confident that TD will fix the problem.

Anyhow, dogfighting bombers is an easy problem to fix. There's less AI programming in making a plane keep station with the other planes in formation, fly straight and level or try to run away than there is in making them try to dogfight. Even if the AI were programed so isolated bombers try to "corkscrew" or hug the ground (if flying low and no ventral gunner) it would probably still be easier to program.

More challenging for AI would be for isolated bombers to try to turn to present the most number of guns against few attacking fighters to trying to "jink" or "break" in such a way as to spoil attacks (e.g., slipping or diving just as fighter making a high-side attack starts its attack run).

Hmm.. Bomber gunner sniper behavior fixed you told?.. Respectfully I don't agree m8 , for me Is really equal as ever was in 4.10, moreover as you said we now have A.I. bombers acting like fighter "Bug" too now that was not present in 4.10 for example.. things are going back instead of forward I feel..

And I repeat: I thank all DT for their FREE work for all us here, but if A.I. code is so hard to modify as someone like to mention here that is a mere and sterile observation, then I think DT will better not even to try again to modify nothing about A.I. code as to prevent other bad evolution of the feature of A.I... is just too bad now.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I just noticed this:

8 Average Ki-43 III vs. a "box" of 3 Veteran B-24J in QMB. 5000m over the Okinawa map. No advantage to either side.
....

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

Hmm.. Bomber gunner sniper behavior fixed you told?.. Respectfully I don't agree m8 , for me Is really equal as ever was in 4.10, moreover as you said we now have A.I. bombers acting like fighter "Bug" too now that was not present in 4.10 for example.. things are going back instead of forward I feel..
...

This is in QMB, right? I think this is a QMB related issue, if I try to shoot down bombers with at least a decent defensive armament in QMB from anything close to 6'o clock, even with significant altitude and speed advantage, I'm meat on a platter even for average AI. In "normal" missions, if I do anything else than parking behind a Bomber with average AI, I'm usually fine, even if I approach from 6'o clock. Coming from above and off-angle or head on versus normal AI I hardly get hit ever. And Bombers don't do some silly "dancing" as sometimes happens in QMB.
Maybe QMB somehow still uses 4.10 AI?

I think TD should continue developing AI. I really liked the improvement they did with 4.11. AI working as a team against you is really nice. Also I haven't encountered the AI doing inverted barrel rolls and accelerating at the same time in 4.11. Their evasion patterns have become more convincing to me -most of the time. And don't forget the ridicolus Bf109 behavior, spiral climb to xxxx meters, then dive, and climb again in 4.10. Haven't seen that in a while(Except in QMB). And even if some new bugs occur, no big problem - they will be ironed out with the next patch.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

This is in QMB, right?

Yes. And you might be right that it's a QMB vs. FMB issue. I'm a bit surprised if it is, though. I thought that AI was independent of FMB vs. QMB.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

I think this is a QMB related issue, if I try to shoot down bombers with at least a decent defensive armament in QMB from anything close to 6'o clock, even with significant altitude and speed advantage, I'm meat on a platter even for average AI.

This is as it should be. For flexible guns shooting a plane attacking from the rear with no angle of deflection is the easiest shot to make. Even a rookie should be able to hit planes that attack like this.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

In "normal" missions, if I do anything else than parking behind a Bomber with average AI, I'm usually fine, even if I approach from 6'o clock. Coming from above and off-angle or head on versus normal AI I hardly get hit ever.

That doesn't seem right. The second easiest shot to make is against a head-on attack with no angle of deflection.

Moving along two axes (e.g., diving and closing on the target) isn't that hard to track for a defensive gunner. Moving along all three axes (i.e., diving, slipping and closing - like with a high-side attack) is a challenge even for a good defensive gunner.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

And Bombers don't do some silly "dancing" as sometimes happens in QMB. Maybe QMB somehow still uses 4.10 AI?

I'm not sure that they do, since they don't have that sniper-like accuracy anymore, especially not at long ranges (remember back before 4.11 where a B-17 tailgunner could devastate your Bf-109G or kill you at 600 meters range?). Part of my original complaint came from the fact that by trying to "dance around" the bombers defensive fire wasn't nearly as accurate as it should be.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Their evasion patterns have become more convincing to me -most of the time.

Yes. And if you replay the same mission (using AI on both sides) you'll notice that each side uses different techniques each time - enough that sometimes one plane will win, sometimes the other will win, based on who chose what tactics.

What I'd like to see is, in addition to team tactics is realistic high altitude/level bomber behavior - Ace or veteran crews will have tighter formations, lone bombers will corkscrew or "jink" while still keeping relatively low G to allow their gunners to shoot effectively, and high altitude bomber formations will randomly change course every 30 seconds over heavy flak concentrations to spoil the gunners aim.

[majorfailure]

-AI Rookie flying A6M in front of you evades by "riding" the snap stall until behind you -seen this often. Also seen twice with Rookie AI in Bf109E or F. They initiate the stall by pulling hard and getting one wing to stall, start circling mainly around the yaw axis while keeping an AoA of around 30 degree. Thus they slow down while presenting a somewhat difficult target. This is not an accidental and uncontrolable stall which happens when puling too hard, because they always start flying straight and level as soon as you overshoot them -of course nose pointing your direction.

-I think this has been adressed before but at a quick glance I couldn't find it: AI drops bombs as soon as command to attack is given.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

This is as it should be. For flexible guns shooting a plane attacking from the rear with no angle of deflection is the easiest shot to make. Even a rookie should be able to hit planes that attack like this.

Yes, if you "park" on the bombers rear quarter, and if you do that against average AI, you will get shot to pieces regularly. But do it with some altitude & speed, maybe from 5'o clock, and stay outside ~300m -you will succeed most of the time-except in QMB. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think AI in QMB does behave different than anywhere else in the game.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That doesn't seem right. The second easiest shot to make is against a head-on attack with no angle of deflection.

This rarely happens -at least to me. I try to set up my head-on passes from above or below, because its easier to avoid ramming the target. And most of the time I don't guess the bombers heading perfectly right. In the end, that presents the gunner with a ~2*3m sized target (frontal cross-section of a fighter) coming in at 230m/s slightly off-angle and out of plain. Average AI should miss this shot regularly IMHO. And even if they score a hit, most bombers have rather weak frontal armament -so if this isn't your unluckiest day, you should be able to pull it off.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

What I'd like to see is, in addition to team tactics is realistic high altitude/level bomber behavior - Ace or veteran crews will have tighter formations, lone bombers will corkscrew or "jink" while still keeping relatively low G to allow their gunners to shoot effectively, and high altitude bomber formations will randomly change course every 30 seconds over heavy flak concentrations to spoil the gunners aim.

Hmm, I don't think that better AI should have tighter formations, they should have less trouble keeping in formation though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't USAAF formations have set distances for their boxes? And considering large bomber formations of more than two flights they shouldn't maneuver to avoid FlaK, as I don't think this was done in WW2. I think most of the time keeping in formation was just enough of a task.