Hardware, software and the future of flight combat sims.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Who are these "hard core anti 777 guys of whom you speak"? Personally I think you are being too dramatic.

None of the comments expressed in this thread match the pure hatred or venom and the malicious vitriol that was directed at the developers of IL2-COD. It was as if there was a campaign trying to make them fail.

Eveyone on this form wants Jason to produce the BEST flight sim available. It's just that some people are expressing concern that they do not think he will succeed.

Look, I understand why some IL-2 fans might be concerned, I totally get that but I don't think you need to look very hard to see that some on this forum are flat out against anything that 777 does, I am not sure why and perhaps it is just a extension of the anger that they feel after being ditched by the higher ups at 1C and Ubisoft but that is not the ROF fanbase's fault.

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

I think this whole thing became clear to me when folks on this forum try to say that CloD even beats DCS titles in the level of simulation, that is absurd as the DCS sims are easily more detailed in terms of flight dynamics, systems modeling, damage model and weapon performance than any other sim on the market, I don't say this as a DCS fanboy, I say this as a flight sim fanboy, one only needs to spend a short time with DCS A-10C to see that it is really something special, sure, the land does not look amazing but that still does not stop it from being the best air/ground combat sim on the market.

Ugh, starting to ramble, gotta cut this short.

CloD is a good sim, if anyone tries to tell me it is not, I tell them that they are wrong but I also think it is wrong to assume that it is the best, it is not and it really should not be used as a example for future projects as it really has it's annoying issues that should never have been there in the first place.

When I want to fly a quick mission in CloD, I have to set up one of the pre-builts so that it can be opened in the editor, open it in the editor, alter the plane types, AI (for all the good it does), change the ammo belts to my customs and then I can click play.

With IL-2 1946 and ROF, I can pick my map, my plane, the enemy, if I want a airstart or a ground start (I loathe air starts) and even alter my loadout, no fuss, no muss. I think this is a good example of why CloD should not be held up so high that we fail to see it's flaws, it is a good sim but the new IL-2 would be wise to steer clear of it's mistakes.

I play both, I enjoy both, I hate this feeling that I get in this forum that I have to choose a side because I have already chosen both.

[addman]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

What is 1 million copies x 50.- .....making money

I don't think CloD sold a million but please provide me with a link to that source though.

P.S Here's a link to vgchartz, they aren't 100% accurate and I'm not sure if they include digital sales but usually it's pretty close to the mark.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by addman

I don't think CloD sold a million but please provide me with a link to that source though.

P.S Here's a link to vgchartz, they aren't 100% accurate and I'm not sure if they include digital sales but usually it's pretty close to the mark.

No you misunderstood, the reason to invest was to sell a million copies like the original game if possible.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

Please post a link to "some of [my] posts" that insinuate that ROF is not a sim. I think a re-read may be in order.

If you are talking about the IL2-BOS site very few of my posts mention Rise of flight except as a point of reference. The Sim being discussed on that forum is Il2 Battle of Stalingrad is memory serves me right.

I have created a thread in the Free Topic area that allows people to discuss what they would like to see in a sim in the year 2014

I have created a thread on game play and kill distributions.

I have expressed concern over graphical issues and multiplayer performance issues.

I have asked direct questions about game play and server administration.

Over all I have tried to be positive, but also that we should not lower our expectations of what a future should be like and in all my posts I have attempted to maintain a positive and respectful demeanor.

Originally Posted by startrekmike

CloD is a good sim, if anyone tries to tell me it is not, I tell them that they are wrong but I also think it is wrong to assume that it is the best, it is not and it really should not be used as a example for future projects as it really has it's annoying issues that should never have been there in the first place.

When I want to fly a quick mission in CloD, I have to set up one of the pre-builts so that it can be opened in the editor, open it in the editor, alter the plane types, AI (for all the good it does), change the ammo belts to my customs and then I can click play.

With IL-2 1946 and ROF, I can pick my map, my plane, the enemy, if I want a airstart or a ground start (I loathe air starts) and even alter my loadout, no fuss, no muss. I think this is a good example of why CloD should not be held up so high that we fail to see it's flaws, it is a good sim but the new IL-2 would be wise to steer clear of it's mistakes.

I play both, I enjoy both, I hate this feeling that I get in this forum that I have to choose a side because I have already chosen both.

In response I will quote the words of Loft on the BoS site

Originally Posted by Loft

Endless arguing over difficult decisions we need to make only scares off new users. We don’t expect every user to like every design decision we make, but once you we have stated your opinion it is enough and will remain on the forum forever for us to see. No need to endlessly vocalize your displeasure, over time it has a detrimental effect on the community.”

If certain people had shown this amount of respect for the CoD developers things may have turned out much differently.

But all this is pritty much off topic in this thread.

[flyingblind]

To be honest this wasn't really meant to be a discussion on CloD or RoF alone. But hey, this is a forum thread so it goes where it goes. I was surmising whether or not the cost of writing code for games that take full advantage of the possibilities of a modern PC is now becoming more than the return on sales so games developement is reaching a ceiling.

The next generation of games consoles will likely be out end of next year and are thought to be as powerful as a top spec PC today and 8 times as powerful as current consoles so maybe this problem will apply to them too. If indeed you think such a problem exists.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Too true, most of the problem comes from using the resorces from modern Hardware efficiently. Problem is that that Moores law states that computing power doubles every 18 months but our expectations expand much more rapidly than that!

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

Look, I understand why some IL-2 fans might be concerned, I totally get that but I don't think you need to look very hard to see that some on this forum are flat out against anything that 777 does, I am not sure why and perhaps it is just a extension of the anger that they feel after being ditched by the higher ups at 1C and Ubisoft but that is not the ROF fanbase's fault.

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

no mikey, its not, RoF flight models are total crap in comparison to a sim like the old il2 or the current CoD. my 6 yo nephew could take off and land on his 1e try in RoF, and these were some of the trickiest and most temperamental aircraft to fly in real life. RoF uses canned and scripted flight models, not real time flight physics (flying around with a plane with no wings in RoF anyone ? or maybe just fly your little aircraft at full speed into the ground from 2000 m to see how "realistic" the end result looks). the funniest thing is that this can get only worse for BoS, because with their reskinning of RoF and adding in a new map they will encounter more of the RoF flight modeling limitations (as oleg predicted when he looked at RoF, and most of what he said about it turned out to be correct).



folks, i am away a few days and you all been fooled by a RoF plant

list "startrekmike"'s recent posts on this forum to get some idea of who and what he is, its like looking at a RoF advertising stream or infomercial, while he undermines and cuts down on CoD at every step he can

its common practice now with some game developers, they send their reps to various forums and websites to pretend they are normal users, and all the while they undermine the competitor and glorify their own product to increase sales and reputation

he's either jason, loft, or one of their stooges, but whatever he is he is not a normal CoD player who has come to exchange information and try and get the most out of the game

and typical for the RoF dood's to employ these underhanded and misleading tactics

mikey, go home, you just been rumbled

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I was flying on ATAG Last night. 112 people at one stage flying in COD. At my 280ms ping I did not notice any warping. It was absolutely fantastic!
This is THE benchmark for any Combat Flight SIM Multiplayer experience.
I wait in anticipation to see if further titles in the IL2 series can match this performance.
Way back when ROF was released I expressed a concern about the limited player limits in the title. The ROF community immediately shot me down because apparently there were NO large scale air combats over the Western front and the places that I read about them were lying.
I stopped posting in that community shortly after.

That's PDG with no warping.. I hope that some of whatever makes that possible in CoD can be implemented in BoS.. but I have yet to fly CoD online as I just got it working offline with my upgrade.. It isn't bad I am still trying to tweak my settings.. I have some issues but i think they may be more settings related.. so I am trying to work through them before I even get online.

Originally Posted by SlipBall

You must have read me wrong, I am not at all against ROF. I'm just saying that ground pounding will require something to pound.

.. and for Stalingrad .. a lot to pound.. When I think about all this.. this whole new thing.. I think of sims other than CoD and RoF and even when I think of IL2 I can't help but look at it all as a cumulative kind of equation.. as in why they can't get some of the things that were right in all these sims and kind of work them into a viable product.

Originally Posted by startrekmike

CloD is a good sim, if anyone tries to tell me it is not, I tell them that they are wrong but I also think it is wrong to assume that it is the best, it is not and it really should not be used as a example for future projects as it really has it's annoying issues that should never have been there in the first place.

When I want to fly a quick mission in CloD, I have to set up one of the pre-builts so that it can be opened in the editor, open it in the editor, alter the plane types, AI (for all the good it does), change the ammo belts to my customs and then I can click play.

With IL-2 1946 and ROF, I can pick my map, my plane, the enemy, if I want a airstart or a ground start (I loathe air starts) and even alter my loadout, no fuss, no muss. I think this is a good example of why CloD should not be held up so high that we fail to see it's flaws, it is a good sim but the new IL-2 would be wise to steer clear of it's mistakes.

I play both, I enjoy both, I hate this feeling that I get in this forum that I have to choose a side because I have already chosen both.

My sentiments exactly..

Originally Posted by addman

I don't think CloD sold a million but please provide me with a link to that source though.

P.S Here's a link to vgchartz, they aren't 100% accurate and I'm not sure if they include digital sales but usually it's pretty close to the mark.

That's an interesting link.. so is that 300k ?

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

so is that 300k ?

No, they are saying 30k.

Which sounds low to me, but I know of nothing that proves it isn't true.

[Meusli]

That's retail sales in the USA and Europe but not Russia, it does not include digital sales either.