Flying the 109: Pilot Accounts

[Crumpp]

The more technical, objective, and detailed the report, the better. Opinion is just that, opinion and without the details of the aircraft, worthless.

For example, the RAE investigation into the flying qualities of the Bf-109 contradicts many of the "opinion" areas given in buzzsaw's accounts.

The visibility from the Bf-109 in the RAE report:

When in flight, the view forward and sideways is normal, being similar to the Hurricane; the windscreen framework members are sufficiently narrow, and do not catch the pilot's eye nor create blind spots. Sideways and rearwards the view is about the same as the Spitfire and Hurricane, but the cramped position of the pilot in the cockpit makes it difficult to look downward or upward to the rear, and the tailplane can only be seen with an effort.


The direct vision opening gives a large field of view and is completely draught free at all speeds. A high speed can thus be maintained in'bad weather conditions, whereas on the Humcane or Spitfire the pilot must slide back the hood and look round the edge of the windscreen to obtain a view-forward in rain or cloud, and can only do this by flying at fairly low speed. The direct vision opening also assists landing, as the high position of the nose obstructs the view forward during the hold off, and the opening is in the correct position to give a view of the ground. The direct vision opening obviously satisfies a very real need, for the early Me.109s were not fitted with this device. The windscreen panels are clear and free from distortion, and do not oil up in flight. The hood sliding panels are difficult to open, particularly at high speeds.

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

The direct vision opening is noted as being a particularly good feature.

It could be the pilot in buzzsaw's anecdotes flew an aircraft not equipped with armored glass versus the other that was equipped with it or some other technical detail.

Point is that without the details, we do not know and outside of passing interest, the information is useless for attempts to reproduce a simulation of the experience.

[Crumpp]

real world data on an aircraft's characteristics can be gathered

Absolutely, but that data has to be gathered by a trained test pilot under measureable and defineable conditions.

The idea of flight testing is eliminate the subjective and stick to the objective.

That is why the NACA developed defined and measureable flying qualities standard during the war in conjunction with the test pilots.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Absolutely, but that data has to be gathered by a trained test pilot under measureable and defineable conditions.

The idea of flight testing is eliminate the subjective and stick to the objective.

That is why the NACA developed defined and measureable flying qualities standard during the war in conjunction with the test pilots.

Apart from trying to re-litigate something which seems to be an obsession with you, what exactly is the point you are making? AFAIK Buzzsaw simply wanted to present flight reports from pilots who have flown the 109, and who have no axe to grind over whether it is some wondrous über fighter; nor am I or anyone else interested in getting into yet another one of your tedious and grandstanding "debates" over NACA's flight tests v everyone else.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The original and complete RAE report on a captured 109E3 can be found here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/att...dling-test.pdf

You may need to be a member of the WWII Aircraft Forums to download it.

You can also see the report in a transcribed format on Kurfurst's 109 page.

http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri...ls/Morgan.html

I am not sure the version posted on Kurfurst's page is complete.

I am not going to post the entire 40 pages of that report, just the sections which I think are most relevant to the aircraft's flying characteristics.

The RAE test is undoubtably the most definitive and scientific report on the flying qualities of the aircraft, as well as its technical details. Unfortunately it is impossible to say whether or not this aircraft's engine was performing to the level which might have been achieved by an operational 109E3 in the hands of a Luftwaffe Staffel. It was one of two 109's which had originally been captured by the French Air Force, put through a series of tests by them, and then shipped over to Britain. However, the technical examination, as well as the results which could be ascertained with lower speed testing, (as for example stall speeds) and which were not dependent on maximum performance can certainly be taken as a good representation of the aircraft's capabilities.

I'll post those excerpts and my comments tommorrow.

[Robo.]

Good read all of the above, thanks for posting!

[SlipBall]

Some good reading here...All in all I'm alright with the 109 they gave us here in game...the one thing that I would like to see worked on is the brakes. I have read that the aircraft had no tendency to be nose heavy when applying them

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide good data with regards to flying qualities and tactics..

For example:

"I felt a slight buzz in the stick just prior to the stall".
"The plane gave no warning in the form of a shutter or stick buzz prior to the stall"

But Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide little if any data with regards to aircraft performance let alone realitive performance.

We know this to be true, in that for every Bf109 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Spitfire, there is a Spitfire 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Bf109.

Therefore Pilot Accounts should be the last, if ever, data used to justify a change to the flight model performance wise.

In short see sig

[WTE_Galway]

In the end most gamers have a preconceived idea of how their favorite mount "should" perform and will pick and choose at will between flight data and pilot accounts depending on what supports there case best.

Meanwhile if you want a HUGE collection of anecdotes and historical assessments of the 109 from pilots of both sides have a look here:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide good data with regards to flying qualities and tactics..

For example:

"I felt a slight buzz in the stick just prior to the stall".
"The plane gave no warning in the form of a shutter or stick buzz prior to the stall"

But Pilot Accounts (combat reports) provide little if any data with regards to aircraft performance let alone realitive performance.

We know this to be true, in that for every Bf109 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Spitfire, there is a Spitfire 'pilot account' that says he was able to out turn a Bf109.

Therefore Pilot Accounts should be the last, if ever, data used to justify a change to the flight model performance wise.

In short see sig

A good balance would be pilot reports and hard data - that way you get the idea of the flight qualities, plus the analysis of hard data.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Paper data dont tell you exaclay how a plane would behave in the air and in the ground. Such pilots reports are very usefull expecially if you are pilot and you want to know what you should expect from a reported plane. For a pilot such notes are really important expecially if you haven't flown before such type of plane. It is common that before you fly new type of plane you ask more experience pilots about some tips and it is something like pilots code which is understandable for another pilot.

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

Ditto - raw data cannot describe how an aircraft flying in real world conditions will respond: test pilots still test new aircraft even after terrabites of data has been crunched because it's only through pilot input, objective and subjective ("yeah, she feels like she's flying a little left wing low"), that real world data on an aircraft's characteristics can be gathered. The aircraft that has been designed and successfully tested using paper data alone has yet to be built eg;

F-35 reaches 5,000 hours of testing

"We take all of our aircraft to high AOA to look at where their departure boundaries are and how recoverable they are once they have acheived the departure boundaries....Any insights we learn...we pass on to the operator."

Let me just get this perfectly clear: Are you two suggesting that there are aspects of flight dynamics that are not possible to quantify?

Yes or no?