The so called "no-loss" concept (whole game) is wrong and stupid.

[BB Shockwave]

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

I'd rather try playing the game with an all-Elf army, or an all-Undead one, etc. I did a no-loss on AP with an all-Lizardman army+Warrior - but only on normal, using Resurrection spell/Time Back only. I have no desire to do it on Impossible, where the game would make me use the same old, same old tactics (Phantom+Paladin for example) over and over in every battle, often for 40+ turns. It is... mind-numbing and boring. This way, each battle was different, and I got to experience the Lizardman units and learn their strenghts and weaknesses. (Apart from the Chosa, I love them all...)

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

It wasn't really necessary to use a ress unit, you could also use spells. The all dragon army worked pretty well, and target + timeback was also very strong. I think the most boring run I did was one where I used the repair droids to the extreme... so not fun.

There isn't any pressure to do no loss in the game. Rather it's fun to see how extreme you can be. And each fight becomes an even more complex puzzle to figure out. One of my favorites was the dragon den on Montero in AP. You could do the fight with like 2 or 3 red and green dragons (killing a few dozen other dragons). Figuring out the right combinations of spells and gear to make impossibly difficult fights, possible, is a huge part of the fun for me.

This is why truly overpowered units (rune mages) and lack of options decreases my enjoyment of the game.

[redsox0717]

You clearly did insult the play style and the people doing it in the first post. You come across as very childish by hating the way others play even though it doesn't affect you in any way.

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by redsox0717

You clearly did insult the play style and the people doing it in the first post. You come across as very childish by hating the way others play even though it doesn't affect you in any way.

Nope. I said it is normal to try to lose no units. I'm sorry for your reading disability.

[Fatt_Shade]

@tiberiu

Nope. I said it is normal to try to lose no units. I'm sorry for your reading disability.

This is same as if I said all players who think no loss is waste of time are stupid and retarded. Did i insult you personally? No, i just said that your way of thinking is stupid and retarded. So yea you did insult all players who go no loss imp game, stop denying it.

Did that already. But you read what you like and are blind to the rest

As for my reading disability and blindness, pls quote post where you gave 1 relevant way of stopping this way of playing. If you referre to this

Possible fixes would be to completely remove from the game the spells and abilities that allow such absurdities, and to better balance the creatures.

, then you`re not fixing problem but butchering game.
For stopping players from taking 50+ turns in some battle to keep army alive is simple solution, it`s not mine idea but very effective (from HoMM3babies mod), so enlighten us with your solution.

And pls tel me when did I lie in this tread as you indicated in PM.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

It wasn't really necessary to use a ress unit, you could also use spells. The all dragon army worked pretty well, and target + timeback was also very strong. I think the most boring run I did was one where I used the repair droids to the extreme... so not fun.

There isn't any pressure to do no loss in the game. Rather it's fun to see how extreme you can be. And each fight becomes an even more complex puzzle to figure out. One of my favorites was the dragon den on Montero in AP. You could do the fight with like 2 or 3 red and green dragons (killing a few dozen other dragons). Figuring out the right combinations of spells and gear to make impossibly difficult fights, possible, is a huge part of the fun for me.

This is why truly overpowered units (rune mages) and lack of options decreases my enjoyment of the game.

I actually disliked Rune Mages not because they are overpowered- they aren't that much in AP/CW - but because it is an inherently silly concept to power a unit with runes - which are very hard to come by and are needed for the development of your heroes. Thankfully a patch addressed this and reduced the number of runes needed to boost them.

As for spells like Time Back and Resurrection, they are less of an option for a Warrior or Paladin, due to less intellect and mana. I mean - they worked fine for me on Normal, as I could be more lenient when investing runes and equipping items - but on Impossible this would be hard to do. For a Mage, I agree it is an option... I use it myself.

Originally Posted by tiberiu

Somebody wrote on this forum that developers of wotn did wrong to make it impossible or nearly impossible to do no-loss on impossible difficulty. I'll explain why the whole concept of a no-loss game is retarded and should be discarded quickly.

Yeah, you are SOOOO not insulting anyone there... Seriously, if you are as old as you say you are (for the record, I am 34) and have been around the internet, you should have heard about a little thing called "Netiquette". Basically, if you post anything in such an insulting manner - even if what you say is right, and you meant well - you will be labelled as a troll, because this is exactly what trolls do - creating topics with the intent of drawing people into prolonged, often personal arguments that actually are far-far removed from the original topic. And frankly, your later comments indicate just that - you are going out of your way to simply say "No, I didn't!" to anyone who practically quotes what you said. This looking more and more like the famous "Argument" from Monty Python...

Basically, if one is able to finish a game about huge fights and combats, many labeled as "invincible" and he is able to win without losing anything, this means that the game is unbalanced and poorly designed. Wars have casualties and it's only logical that a fight called "impossible" or "invincible" should in fact be factually impossible to do, otherwise it makes no sense to even call it that way. To be able to win "impossible" fights with no loss is even more stupid.

The game is hardly unbalanced because someone is able to keep the enemy at bay using debuffs and then reviving his lost units while finding clever ways to regenerate mana and rage (Emerald Green Dragons, Fountain of Magic, etc...) Usually at the point you do this, the AI is limited to one-two disabled or slowed troop, out of mana to cast spells, and there is no way it can do anything to stop the player from doing this. But up until this point, the AI fights and works as intended.

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too? I remember playing no-loss campaigns myself back in the nineties - using Blind, Slow, or Resurrect. Heck, one campaign in Armageddon's Blade pits you against a throng of Nagas that you can only defeat by cleverly manipulating them with spells like Blind, Slow or Berserk so that they never reach your units. The battle is practically designed this way. It is not a loophole, or not unbalancing.

If you want to see unbalancing, play Age of Wonders II. Even after patches and fan patches, some races are simply waaaay more powerful then others.

[amyndris]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too? I remember playing no-loss campaigns myself back in the nineties - using Blind, Slow, or Resurrect. Heck, one campaign in Armageddon's Blade pits you against a throng of Nagas that you can only defeat by cleverly manipulating them with spells like Blind, Slow or Berserk so that they never reach your units. The battle is practically designed this way. It is not a loophole, or not unbalancing

Heh, I just played this level 2 weeks ago (I was marathoning through all the old HoMM...finished 1, 2+PoL, 3 and am on AB) and due to level layout, I managed to beat it by bouncing them between two chokepoints using Force Field

It was something like 7 stacks for 500 Naga Queens.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by amyndris

Heh, I just played this level 2 weeks ago (I was marathoning through all the old HoMM...finished 1, 2+PoL, 3 and am on AB) and due to level layout, I managed to beat it by bouncing them between two chokepoints using Force Field

It was something like 7 stacks for 500 Naga Queens.

There are two such battles, actually -one has 4 Nagas and 2 Naga Queen stacks, one the 7x500 Naga Queens - obviously the latter is the harder battle. And yes, this is probably one of the few times when Force Field comes in handy as an useful spell!

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

Yeah, you are SOOOO not insulting anyone there... Seriously, if you are as old as you say you are (for the record, I am 34) and have been around the internet, you should have heard about a little thing called "Netiquette". Basically, if you post anything in such an insulting manner - even if what you say is right, and you meant well - you will be labelled as a troll, because this is exactly what trolls do - creating topics with the intent of drawing people into prolonged, often personal arguments that actually are far-far removed from the original topic. And frankly, your later comments indicate just that - you are going out of your way to simply say "No, I didn't!" to anyone who practically quotes what you said. This looking more and more like the famous "Argument" from Monty Python...

How can I insult a CONCEPT, son? I didn't say "everybody who does no-loss is stupid". I EVEN said black on white that it's logical and natural for the player to try and to want to do no loss.

Who is the troll here? Go get your glasses.

clever ways

LOL. If you think killing legions of bear with 1 assassin is clever and that casting mana accelerator+phantom inquisitor obsessively it means you just have a very poor definition for the word "clever".

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too?

Yes, and, just as a random fact, most people I know of play with custom rules. Even championships are played with custom rules by people because the game is broken. (Necropolis skeletons overpowerd, Diplomacy hero vs No diplomacy hero =gg, and these are just 2 examples out of dozens)
Heroes 4 was probably the most worthy attempt to make the game balanced and fair. Heroes 5 fixed necromancy but made it possible to beat 100.000 pheonix (lvl7) with only 2 vampires.

I am growing tired of having to explain myself to people in dire need of both logic and strategy courses. The fact remains that Kings Bounty (fun as it is, overall) remains a game that presents no challange whatsoever to expert strategy players. As soon as you put your hands on overpowered spells and units, the game is over. What is the point of playing the game thereafter? To see the SCORE? To see a number on the screen? In a game that is single-player? I find it interesting to analyse scores at the end of online Warcraft 3 games, but in singleplayer not so much.

[Fatt_Shade]

How can I insult a CONCEPT, son?

Go get your glasses.

Again you with calling other people `son` , and accusing all on this tread for bad eyesight. Is there anything we should know about you tiberiu? Like is your father calling you daughter all the time, or you wear jar type of glasses and half blind as bat?

And you DONT have problem with players doing no loss, but call them all stupid and retarded , then accept custom rules for championships but NO for personal play at home. Then asking why is no loss even choice of some players, it just IS. Some ppl get game and right from start google cheats for it, here players invest time to go thru game to see what it offers not for number on screen. As for your Warcraft3 online games i bet you`re real pleasure to play with that personality.