4.11 - AI debugging

[Stig1207]

[QUOTE=FC99;468490]AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.


Giving orders to your wingman / flight(s) under your command in a given situation during a mission is one thing, but there are other things that are basic, and a wingman who didn't know what to do if a bandit jumps on his leads tail in WWII would have been the exception, not the rule.

If a RL pilot checked six and saw a bandit in between him and his wingman, I reckon, providing they both got back to base, that the wingman would be meekly washing his (the lead's) underpants.

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

/Stig

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

I agree. If you're a wingman, your standing orders are to keep enemy planes from attacking your lead.

A wingman who doesn't do that unless you specifically tell him to do so isn't much of a wingman. Maybe for Rookie AI, but certainly Average or better wingmen should move aggressively to drive off enemy planes threatening his lead - WITHOUT BEING COMMANDED TO DO SO.

The only exception would be if the wingman has been forced to take evasive action himself and/or has lost Situational Awareness as to where his lead is.

If the AI wingman doesn't do this automatically, then there should be some way of making it do so, by creating "standing orders" for AI.


Actually, the ability for mission builders and/or players to "program" the AI using standing orders would be an incredibly cool addition to the game, and would be a very simple way to deal with a whole host of tactical situations that would otherwise drive an AI programmer nuts.

I could see it working sort of like a macro or script, where the player/mission builder could order certain units to do things like hold a certain course or altitude relative to another plane, fire/not fire at certain targets, avoid/attack certain planes or classes of planes, etc. Variants of this programming could be used to do things like make fighters stay within a certain distance of the bombers they're escorting, make bombers divert to a secondary target if clouds cover the primary target, fighters only drop drop tanks if they encounter fighters, or have planes in your flight trail enemy planes back to their base.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I agree. If you're a wingman, your standing orders are to keep enemy planes from attacking your lead.

A wingman who doesn't do that unless you specifically tell him to do so isn't much of a wingman. Maybe for Rookie AI, but certainly Average or better wingmen should move aggressively to drive off enemy planes threatening his lead - WITHOUT BEING COMMANDED TO DO SO.

OK, so desired behavior is to set wingman into defend leader mode when they notice the enemy with the exception of Rookies which will blindly follow the leader unless told otherwise?

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)

If the AI wingman doesn't do this automatically, then there should be some way of making it do so, by creating "standing orders" for AI.

Actually, the ability for mission builders and/or players to "program" the AI using standing orders would be an incredibly cool addition to the game, and would be a very simple way to deal with a whole host of tactical situations that would otherwise drive an AI programmer nuts.

We are in a process of enhancing comms and some of the things you want will be available to player that way.

I could see it working sort of like a macro or script, where the player/mission builder could order certain units to do things like hold a certain course or altitude relative to another plane, fire/not fire at certain targets, avoid/attack certain planes or classes of planes, etc.

Everything that involves messing with the mission file is sensitive topic because of backward compatibility. Once you put something into mission file you are stuck with it so all eventual additions require careful evaluation. Hard part here is designing robust and flexible scheme for adding various parameters but we are working on it. Main task for 4.13 will be triggers and that will cover lot of your wishes.

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by FC99

OK, so desired behavior is to set wingman into defend leader mode when they notice the enemy with the exception of Rookies which will blindly follow the leader unless told otherwise?

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)

Even a rookie, seeing a bandit on his leaders tail, would know he has try to help if he can, or at least warn his leader of the danger.

A major part of a fighter pilots duties is shooting down enemy aircraft, so why wouldn't No 3 try to shoot down the bandit that's attacking the flight leader if he's in a position to do so?

RegRag:

With all respect, I think the problem is not here: in fact the wingman should be shot at/down first, he should be asking for his leader's help in the first place, not the contrary . You would never see a pilot trying to kill a leader by placing his fighter between the target and his wingman: this is what should be changed IMHO.

I agree, but I have seen No 3 of my flight doing the same thing, flying past the wingman to attack the leader, but the difference is that the bandit wingman opens fire and No 3 breaks off, screaming for help

Also, regarding your post 230. Some may be better than others at flying wing, and even an AI wingman should not be expected to risk his 'life' trying to save his leader. But the issue here is that the AI wingman doesn't react at all to the attack on his (player) flight leader unless he is commanded to so. And that is even if the attacking bandit is flying right beside him or maybe even in his gunsight, and this is whether the wingman is a rookie or an ace, there's no difference.
It should be obvious for an AI wingman what's happening and also fairly obvious what he needs to do, but how well he does is of cause another matter.

/Stig

[rollnloop]

Originally Posted by FC99

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)

I suggest by default, 2nd pair covers lead's pair from a few hundred meters away (higher alt better).

If lead's pair engaged by any forward firing aircraft (not by rear gunners), 2nd pair engages this aircraft and attacks it until it goes down or flees more than 5km from lead's pair, then goes back to "cover lead's pair" mode. Lead can recall 2nd pair back via "cover me" command any time.


If intruscted to attack, 2nd pair goes after own target.

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I agree. If you're a wingman, your standing orders are to keep enemy planes from attacking your lead.

Which is one of the very most difficult task to master, it is very rare to see it well performed by human players playing online BTW. Rarely have i seen it performed correctly...But that's just my limited experience of the game you may say.

The saving wingman, well that works especially in theory.

As wingman you must have a superior SA, a good intelligence of the dynamic of a fight, and you have to have a good aim too, qualities that are never ever found by less skilled fighter pilots, not to talk about the will to protect that must be stronger than the greed and the call of glory...

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

A wingman who doesn't do that unless you specifically tell him to do so isn't much of a wingman. Maybe for Rookie AI, but certainly Average or better wingmen should move aggressively to drive off enemy planes threatening his lead - WITHOUT BEING COMMANDED TO DO SO.

Right, though you are actually describing an expert pilot as wingman, certainly not an average one. That's maybe the other ace of the squad and his wingman you are talking about in your post, perhaps not the direct wingman. Perhaps more than by wingman, cover should be provided by the 2nd (or other) element (ZVENO, Red Flight, Rotte), but anyway they should not be able to obey orders if engaged, and they should chose their life by disengaging over saving the leader in case of encountering superior enemy.

Only a very small elite of human pilots are "much of a wingman", perhaps your standards are set too high. Wingman, it is not easy job you can comply just by obeying orders...Wingman able to give protection = very high skill level! The only diffference with aces (apart from kill ratio obviously) is a different kind of aggressiveness, less "primal" i would say.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The only exception would be if the wingman has been forced to take evasive action himself and/or has lost Situational Awareness as to where his lead is.

Yes, but one should note that these exceptions come in particular cases: especially if the leader did not plan the attack correctly, and did not spot the danger (call it again human pilot mistake) or if the flight is attacked by surprise, in which case there would not be much to wait from the unlucky wingman...If the leader does something really too dangerous i doubt the wingman will risk his life to save the greedy leader. Even in the real world i'm sure they would rather save their own life instead. This should be taken into consideration too when programming AI. It would be strange to have an AI just to sacrifice it when things go wrong to allow a last card to be played. This just would not be realistic at all...On the contrary, good planning of the attack, waiting to see and chosing not to engage should be somehow rewarded instead.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

If the AI wingman doesn't do this automatically, then there should be some way of making it do so, by creating "standing orders" for AI.

I can't see why Ai should automatically do something as difficult as finding the lost leader in the middle of a fight when it is only the very best human fighter pilots that are able to do so in real life and in game (no icons, close cockpits of course). Often the flight is scattered by the attackers : this is actually why the surprise attack is the best.

When surprised and scattered there's not much you can do but try to save your life if your ac performance allows it. Otherwise i can not see why human player would not be shot down. It happened all the time during WW2 even to the very best.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Actually, the ability for mission builders and/or players to "program" the AI using standing orders would be an incredibly cool addition to the game, and would be a very simple way to deal with a whole host of tactical situations that would otherwise drive an AI programmer nuts.

I could see it working sort of like a macro or script, where the player/mission builder could order certain units to do things like hold a certain course or altitude relative to another plane, fire/not fire at certain targets, avoid/attack certain planes or classes of planes, etc. Variants of this programming could be used to do things like make fighters stay within a certain distance of the bombers they're escorting, make bombers divert to a secondary target if clouds cover the primary target, fighters only drop drop tanks if they encounter fighters, or have planes in your flight trail enemy planes back to their base.

These are all great ideas but to me they should only work if the wingman AI is veteran or ace, and only when the flight has the initiative of the attack with a great margin to exploit or when the flight controls the situation. If suprise attacked or against superior enemy AI "protection" skills should be decreased drastically, even to a lower point that what we have now, if possible (ie finding oneself alone against a whole enemy squadron).

[secretone]

[QUOTE=Stig1207;468559]

Originally Posted by FC99

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.


Giving orders to your wingman / flight(s) under your command in a given situation during a mission is one thing, but there are other things that are basic, and a wingman who didn't know what to do if a bandit jumps on his leads tail in WWII would have been the exception, not the rule.

If a RL pilot checked six and saw a bandit in between him and his wingman, I reckon, providing they both got back to base, that the wingman would be meekly washing his (the lead's) underpants.

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

/Stig

With Greatest Respect To TD: +1 on Stig's idea; there is often no time to think and give orders in combat - people have to know how to act in an unexpected situation in order for a unit to be effective as a team. I know that this concept of teamwork was accepted by the Americans, Germans and British.

[RegRag1977]

[QUOTE=Stig1207;468559]

Originally Posted by FC99

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.


Giving orders to your wingman / flight(s) under your command in a given situation during a mission is one thing, but there are other things that are basic, and a wingman who didn't know what to do if a bandit jumps on his leads tail in WWII would have been the exception, not the rule.

If a RL pilot checked six and saw a bandit in between him and his wingman, I reckon, providing they both got back to base, that the wingman would be meekly washing his (the lead's) underpants.

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

/Stig

With all respect, I think the problem is not here: in fact the wingman should be shot at/down first, he should be asking for his leader's help in the first place, not the contrary . You would never see a pilot trying to kill a leader by placing his fighter between the target and his wingman: this is what should be changed IMHO.

But again, if a wingman is shot at, then perhaps the leader did a mistake by not seeing the one "that will kill you friend".