fw 190a5 flight model

[|450|Leady]

Hey just to add a little fuel to the fire

Somewhere I've seen a link to the report Icefire refers to (or at least scanned pages) From memory I'm sure the 109G that was used in the test had gun pods fitted. Hence high wing loading and poor turn capability.

Cheers

Leady

(PS Gaston, how many times and on how many forums can you flog that poor dead horse of yours??)

[ElAurens]

*sniff* *sniff*

I smell an agenda in this thread, and it smells a lot like knackwurst.

Just sayin'.

[Glider]

So to sum up you agree that all the test reports, from all nations, disagree with you, but you insist that you are right.
Also you don't have any evidence but you don't hesitate to twist what a real pilot said to make it fit your fantasy in particular Hauptmann Heinz Lange.

And as for the one example

P/O J. Stewart (Rhodesian) of 64 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 30 July 1942:

I was flying as Blue 3 and during the engagement I saw 4 F.W. 190's flying below me in the opposite direction and attacking four of my squadron. I shouted a warning and stall-turned to port to attack the rear two F.W. 190's. They broke and turned with me but I could easily out-turn them and I got several bursts at the rear one.

That should do it

[Derda508]

Hi there,

well I do not think that anyone here wants to be convinced by arguments. But I would still like to share something that might be considered interesting for those who wonder about the differences between FM, test results and pilot accounts.
I always loved the FW 190 but, alas, this love is not really returned in IL2. I find it much harder to fly than other aircraft. In the beginning I used to blame the game, since all German fighter pilots I heard in interviews (Rall, Krupinsky etc.) agreed that the FW was "much easier to fly, and especially to land". Naturally these are highly subjective personal points of view, but most pilots seem to have felt the same. Now, why don´t we (or maybe just bad pilots like me) experience this in the game? A possible answer is given in the book "Feindberührung" by the late Julius Meimberg. I don´t know whether this brilliant book was translated into English, so here I try to present some relevant paragraphs (translating as good as I can). Meimberg was a fighter pilot from ´39 to ´45, flying in France, Africa, France again and during the last month of the war in Germany. He scored 59 confirmed kills. After being severely wounded in summer ´41 he returned to the channel front May 4th 1942, and was brought up to date by his commanding officer Walter Oesau:
"But there were good news as well, and they all had the same name: Focke-Wulf Fw 190. ... Immediately (after its introduction) kill scores went up considerably, especially against the British Spitfire V, which is inferior to the FW 190 in all respects, with the possible exception of turn-fights."
May 5th Meimberg for the first time tests his 190 in flight:
" I climb up to my workplace ... and slide into the seat, which allows an almost lying position: thus the pilot is better equipped to endure the impact of forces during aerial combat. The cabin is narrow as in the Messerschmitt, but you do not feel cramped. On both sides of the seat there are panels with switches for landing gear, flaps, trim, radio, oxygen supply and the electrical fuses. Nothing of all this is protruding annoyingly into the cockpit (as in the BF 109); everything is arranged in such a way that, given some routine, it can be felt and operated blindly. Coarse mechanical contraptions are completely absent. Were in the Messerschmitt you had to turn big wheels and small cranks, here you push a switch and everything is done by a servomotor. Trim, gear, flaps - all electric.
This airplane, you see it with every detail, was constructed by people who fly themselves and know what a fighter-pilot needs most: a clear head for the fight. In accordance with this special care was given to engine management. On the left side of the cockpit, were I am used to three different operating levers for power, mixture and prop pitch, there is only one. According to its position and the atmospheric conditions a so-called Kommandogerät is optimizing the engine management. This disburdens the pilot enormously. He can fully concentrate on flying, aiming and shooting. In the air as well the Focke-Wulf is pure joy. Controlling is smooth and harmonic; its roll-rate is breathtaking and it dives like a stone. ..."
To illustrate his point Meimberg, little later in the book, quotes the very same passage by Alan Deere that was referred to earlier in this thread, not least because it was an encounter of Deere´s 403rd squadron with Meimbergs own 3./JG 2.
Meimberg himself shot down six Spitfires with his FW 190 A-2, nine more from August to December 1942 flying a Bf 109 G-1.

Now, all the things he praises most about the Focke-Wulf that make it superior or "easier to fly" than the Messerschmitt (the feeling of being save and comfortable and the ergonomics of the controls) is not and cannot be modelled in our beloved flight sim. Such a pity! But that´s what we have got.

(@ ElAurens: no idea if Meimberg liked Knackwurst, such as I do. But neither of us is or was a Nazi ... while Hitler was a vegetarian).

[jermin]

This forum is hijacked by self-appointed experts who don't even know how to do reasoning correctly. Don't try to argue with them, otherwise your post will be deleted eventually.

My whole squadron (Flying German fighters) has stopped supporting the newly released patches which severely porked the already undermodeled German planes and will stay on UP3 from now on.

I'm afraid Oleg need to do something to stop his game being tinkered by some unprofessional bigots any longer.

[Janosch]

Originally Posted by jermin

My whole squadron (Flying German fighters) has stopped supporting the newly released patches which severely porked the already undermodeled German planes and will stay on UP3 from now on.

That's funny, since there's no shred of professionalism or accuracy to be found in UP3.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by jermin

This forum is hijacked by luftwhiners who don't even know how to do reasoning correctly. Don't try to argue with them, otherwise your post will be deleted eventually.

My whole squadron (Flying German fighters) has stopped supporting the newly released patches which severely porked the already undermodeled German planes and will stay on UP3 from now on.

I'm afraid Oleg need to do something to stop his game being tinkered by some unprofessional bigots any longer.

congratulations for joke post of the thread.

impressive, considering some of the other contenders.

[ElAurens]

Oh, please don't think I am calling anyone a Nazi.

Not my intention at all sir.

I've just seen this tactic used over and over again in the 10 years I've been involved with the IL2 series.

There are folks that fly for both sides that are so wrapped up in their aircraft that any way to get an edge is OK with them. It's been like this since the dawn of online combat flight simulation.

[Derda508]

@ ElAurens

No sweat

I know what you mean.

[Gaston]

Originally Posted by Glider

So to sum up you agree that all the test reports, from all nations, disagree with you, but you insist that you are right.
Also you don't have any evidence but you don't hesitate to twist what a real pilot said to make it fit your fantasy in particular Hauptmann Heinz Lange.

And as for the one example

P/O J. Stewart (Rhodesian) of 64 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 30 July 1942:

I was flying as Blue 3 and during the engagement I saw 4 F.W. 190's flying below me in the opposite direction and attacking four of my squadron. I shouted a warning and stall-turned to port to attack the rear two F.W. 190's. They broke and turned with me but I could easily out-turn them and I got several bursts at the rear one.

That should do it

Well KG 200 did do tests and they did say "The P-47D out-turns our Bf-109G", but you do choose to ignore them don't you?

Or maybe I misunderstood your position, and you actually understand the Me-109G is ridiculously out-turned by the P-47D?

You also choose to ignore what all combat reports are saying, including your own quote:

"I was flying as Blue 3 and during the engagement I saw 4 F.W. 190's flying below me"

Well, if you want to make sure it is not high speed, you better exclude diving from the equation don't you?

On top of that we don't know how far below, or how fast they were going...:

"in the opposite direction and attacking four of my squadron."

"Attacking" and "opposite direction" implies they are neither slow nor, more importantly, turning...

Maybe "Stall-turned" confused you: It does not mean that the turning was close to level flying speed stall, but it could instead very well be close to a 350-400 MPH 6 G "stall-turn"... In fact unsustained speed maximum rate turns are typically "stall-turns"...

Finally: "They broke and turned with me but I could easily out-turn them and I got several bursts at the rear one."

Well "several" burst is good for your argument, but still there is no suggestion of low speed or multiple level turns is there?

In fact, "broke and turned with me", combined with "attacking" and "opposite direction", pretty much implies they were previously going fairly straight, which in turn suggests fairly fast...

But maybe you don't quite get the distinction I make between high G turning performance and low-G sustained turning performance? Well, consider that just because it's all the same for our "sophisticated" current flight physics (assuming similar needed stick effort per G at high speeds), it doesn't mean it's all the same for my theory...

But since you don't accept, not even momentarily for the sake of an argument apparently, the basics of my theory, that explains the unconvincing example you chose...

Hey, have you heard of the multiple turns level fight by Johnny Johnson? "Opposite side of an ever diminishing circle"?: That's more like the ticket...

"It was only a matter of time", and one will come up...

Gaston