fw 190a5 flight model

[Gaston]

Originally Posted by lonewulf

Gaston, while I admire your revisionist zeal, your conclusions about the 190 are simply wrong.

Your analysis of the Al Deere incident is a case in point. There is no doubt that Al Deere was caught out by the 190s that day and in the resulting bloodbath lost a number of his squadron mates. However, it had nothing to do with 'turning circle'. On this occasion the 190s bounced his Mk Vs and then used their superior speed and climb to decimate the hapless formation. It is true that the attack was sustained in nature and that the pilots in the 190s demonstrated great confidence in their aircraft; but that was more to do with their ability to outperform the Spitfires (in everything BUT sustained turn) and to enter or break off the combat at will..

No doubt?

Where's your evidence that the battle that day happened the way you claim? Do you have other accounts of that particular day?

My bet is that you don't, and that you simply placate a meaning that is not present in a single word in there...

The fact that he contrasts "a quick pass and away" 109 tactics with "never before did the Hun stay and fight it out as these Focke-Wulf pilots were doing" illustrates clearly what he meant: STAYING means you don't build up speed but fight at low speeds. And that means mostly staying on the horizontal.

If you want to ignore that, then you are just reading what you want into it: He clearly states the Me-109 tactics were a contrast to the FWs, in perfect concordance with the Russian observation of how they always interacted in 1943 (up to Boddenplatte in January 1945: Read any of the "Boddenplatte" accounts as well)...

Remember Rall's quote: "The Me-109 a floret (straight and edgeless), the FW-190 a sabre (curved and used in curved motion)"

He also said: "Rechlin told us the FW-190A out-turned the Me-109F, however, I could out-turn it":

Like many Eastern Front Me-109 pilots, he was clinging to a false concept of how they compared: By dropping the throttle it was probably true he could reverse the tables... But then the 190 could do it also, if the pilot knew about the counter-intuitive "trick" of downthrottling permanently in sustained low speed turns...

Another 109 pilot thought the same wrongheaded thing, just like simmers today...:

Quote from an Oseau demise witness (Jagdwaffe, "Defence of the Reich 1944-45" Eric Forsyth, p.202): "Many times I told Oseau the FW-190A was better than the Bf-109G........ Each turn became tighter and his Bf-109 (Me-109G-6AS) lost speed, more so than his (P-51D) adversaries. He was probably shot down near the ground"

(Implying this would not have happened with the FW-190A. BTW, period tests have show the D-9 was a much inferior fighter in horizontal turns to the A, and indeed the D was not used in the same way)

Rechlin quote: "The FW-190A out-turns and out-rolls the Me-109 at any speed"

General US 8th Air Force fighter pilot opinion was that the FW-190A turned tighter than the Me-109. Just ask any veteran P-51 pilot the next time you see one...

Osprey "Duel" #39 "La-5/7 vs FW-190", Eastern Front 1942-45:

P.69 "Enemy FW-190A pilots never fight on the vertical plane.---The Messerschmitt posessed a greater speed and better maneuverability in a vertical fight"

P.65 Vladimir Orekov: "An experienced Fw-190A pilot practically never fights in the vertical plane"

Weirner Steiz: "The 190 was a much better aircraft than the 109: You could curve it"

I don't know, is there something like a trend here?

Originally Posted by lonewulf

The advantage that the 190 had over the Spit soon to evaporate away with the introduction of the Mk 9.

You want side-by-side comparisons by pilot opinion of their own aircrafts?:

AFDU

Air Fighting Development Unit, R.A.F. Station DUXFORD

Report No 46 on Tactical Trials -SPITFIRE IX



From 26 April 1942

Manoeuvrability

20......... The Spitfire IX was compared with a Spitfire VC for turning circles and dog-fighting at heights between 15,000 and 30,000 feet. At 15,000 feet there was little to choose between the two aircraft although the superior speed and climb of the Spitfire IX enabled it to break off its attack by climbing away and then attacking in a dive. This manoeuvre was assisted by the negative 'G' carburettor, as it was possible to change rapidly from climb to dive without the engine cutting. At 30,000 feet there is still little to choose between the two aircraft in manoeurvrability, but the superiority in speed and climb of the Spitfire IX becomes outstanding."

--------------------------

So the Spit Mk IX doesn't out-turn the Spit Mk V, by the reckoning of its own pilots....

Furthermore, I have it directly from a mechanic at the "Planes of Fame" flying museum that the Spitfire Mk V they have been flying for decades always turns faster than the best the Spitfire Mk IX can do: Exactly what I would expect...

Despite those contradicting Russian turn times (17.5 to 18.8 sec, but all of these Russian figures don't seem very indicative of anything to me), there is no evidence the Spit Mk IX turns any faster than the Mk V, and considerable evidence to the contrary...

In the above AFDU quote, the emphasis is on Mk IX vertical performance, diving and zooming, and in actual combat the Spitfire Mk IX could do sharp high speed turns, but could not survive in close-in slow speed dogfighting, just as John Weir says, and if you've read actual combat accounts you will see the Spitfire IX always use dive and zoom, while the FW-190 always used horizontal turns...

The Mk V was such a poor turn-fighter in Russian hands they removed the outer guns to try to lighten it, but it had little effect:

Russian opinion of the Spitfire (Mk V): It is unsuitable for prolonged horizontal combat (meaning short unsustained horizontal combat is probably better), and it is excellent at combat on the vertical plane... In "Le Fana de l'Aviation" #496 p. 40: " Les premiers jours furent marqués par des échecs dus à une tactique de combat périmée dans le plan horizontal, alors que le Spitfire était particulièrement adapté au combat dans le plan vertical."

Translation: "The Spitfire failed in horizontal fighting, but was particularly adapted to vertical fighting"

In that same article, the Soviets even tried to remove the outer guns to improve the Spitfire's turn performance, to no avail...

Even the Spitfire Mk V was completely hopeless in prolonged low-speed turns against the FW-190A (just like John Weir says), and bear in mind it DOES turn faster than the Mk IX (same thing or even worse vs the Mk XIIs and XIVs):



Quote: "Opposite sides of an ever diminishing circle... I asked the Spitfire for all she had... It was just a matter of time and he would have me in his sights..."

Also, Johnny Johnson opines here the FW-190A turned better than the Me-109... Hey, this article was just after the war, and I wasn't there to wisper in his ear you know!

Gray Stenborg, 23 September 1944 (Spitfire Mk XII): "On looking behind I saw a FW-190 coming up unto me. I went into a terribly steep turn to the left, but the FW-190 seemed quite able to stay behind me. He was firing at 150 yards-I thought "this was it"-when all of a sudden I saw an explosion near the cockpit of the FW-190, upon which it turned on its back."

S/L J. B. Prendergast of 414 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 2 May 1945 (Mk XIV vs FW-190A): "I saw my No. 2’s burst hitting the water--------The E/A being attacked by my No. 2 did a steep orbit and my No. 2 being unable to overtake it broke away."




Just for laugh, try finding ONE counter-example without steep high speed dives just before a single harsh 360° turn, or not above 20 000 ft....: Try counter-examples with multiple turns down low... Good luck!

And there is a very easy way to prove me (and almost all WWII pilots) wrong: Show me in-flight wing-flexing strain gauge data that shows the wingloading really does match the "calculated" values... So far I have found only wing bending tests on the ground...

The reality is that for these old machines it was never done in-flight...

You guys are simply incapable of seeing there is virtually no first hand combat experience that things work the way theory (and thus simulations)says they do: I have hundreds of P-47 combat accounts where the P-47 at low altitude and low speeds reverses in horizontal turns a tailing Me-109 in 3-4 360°turns or less: A big fat ZERO the other way around: Just how many to ZERO would it take?

Can you find ONE example here of a Me-109 out-turning a P-47?:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...r-reports.html

In right side turns they were more equal: One account does show some P-47/Me-109 parity in late 1943 against probably a sleeker G-2 in a prolonged right hand diving spiral. The P-47 then wins in a left hand diving spiral...

I defy anyone to find in this link above (600+ P-47 combat accounts) a single 1944 account of a P-47 having the slightest trouble beating in any kind of sustained multiple 360 turns the Me-109G, or even taking more than five 360° turns to reverse a tailing 109...

Yes at very high speed there is one Me-109 that briefly beats the P-47 in turns at very high speeds: The Me-109's wings then immediately break off... Not low-speed I would think....

Read these accounts, and see the obvious nothing you are clinging to... I think a six year old could see the light...

Gaston