SHOOTING at the OLYMPICS

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Bliss

I don't even know where to start in this thread. Those that think there is such a thing as a civilized society in the world today must be seriously demented. All of society is about money and power. Every ounce of it. A truly civilized society would care about all the people starving in the world instead of spending trillions in advertising for products they sell. They would think of others before themselves. But we don't. The world doesn't reward that. This is how society works. There is no such thing as a civilized society anywhere on this planet. So anyone saying that "I can't believe a civilized society like the US doesn't have more strict gun control/gun bans" is an absolute buffoon. We as a whole are very very very far from being civilized.

Couldn't agree more.

2ndly, any citizen should have every right to own damn near any gun/rifle/machine gun etc., they want. There's nothing worse than feeling/being helpless in a life threatening situation. NOTHING. Do you think that 100 Nazi soldiers could have gone into a town and rounded up 10's of 1000's of the Jewish had they all had been armed? Good fricken luck. The US does go to extremes on everything - anything from our cars, to our food, to our weapons, to our military, etc.. But one thing that will NEVER happen is some other country invading, or our own government rounding us up like sheep to be slaughtered. We contained the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor, which is a very sad thing indeed. But there was no US soldiers out there killing the innocent civilians for crying, or trying to run etc. The absolute opposite of what happened when the Nazi's were rounding up the Jews and stealing all their possessions. I guarantee had the US army rounded up the Japanese and killed those that didn't line up like sheep, that our population would have gone after the military 10 fold. The white house would probably have been blown up etc. What can citizens of a country do that have no means of defending themselves when the citizens themselves are being raped, murdered, and slaughtered? Absolutely fricken nothing.

wait a minute now... you dropped two atomic bombs on civilians and firebombed their major cities. The fact you found a more efficient way to kill civilians doesn't make you better. Let's not play the game of "we're based on better moral grounds", because this is really not the case, we've ALL our skeletons in the closet. The US were an extremely racist country back then and after the war, so your statement is not acceptable.

That's what always amazed me reading about WWII. The amount of countries that just fell right over when Germany invaded is baffling. The population of those countries easily out numbered the German military by 10 - 20 fold and hardly anyone could do anything about it except stand there with their tail between their legs, subdue, or get shot in the head by the only people with munitions.

the way in which it happened would have left the US with their mouths wide open if you were invaded like the rest of Europe: let's not forget that your best tank in 1939 was the Grant and that you still had your M1903 as infantry rifle issue. Your Air Force was in no better state, so I doubt you would have managed to contain a well organized, well equipped and tactically supreme German Army. It took you fellas up to 1941/1942 to become militarily competitive, and the advantage was that you were an ocean away, far from the battlefields and out of the reach of their bombers.
Now I'm not saying you wouldn't have overcome them, but look what happened to the Russian giant before they managed to deliver an effective counter-offensive..
As for the Jewish, there were some cases of rebellions, like the Warsaw ghetto revolt and the Warsaw uprising, but they were few and far between, the problem was about internal conflicts, cos some people were indeed cool/couldn't be bothered/profited from the Nazi occupation. It's not all so black and white here in Europe.

The US has done it's fair share of being the stupid super power of the world, but one thing the government in the US will never be able to do is perform a genocide on it's own citizens. One word gets out and they'd have 50 million + armed citizens not letting that happen. All it takes is one crazy leader, the brainwashed citizens, the fellow military leaders, a whole bunch of propaganda and we'd have another Nazi Germany. I'm sorry, but as long as I live if I'm going out, I'm not going to do it defenseless. I'm not ever going to get to the point of marching into some gas chamber without being able to do anything about the situation in the 1st place.

Yeah, you export genocides and give them names like "war on terror" or "peacekeeping", much more efficient, proficient and profitable. Have a look at the number of casualties in the countries you "exported democracy" to since the end of WW2..

You can think I'm crazy. You can think I'm insane. But the real story is had all the citizens in those other countries during WWII been gun-toting hippies like us in the US, Hitler would have had to change his tactics up just a bit before an invasion. Because, quite frankly, any country that would dare try to invade the US would have as much problem with the population as they would with the military. And that's the truth. Think guns are bad all you want. (I don't like them either tbh - which is funny because of how many 1000's of rounds I fire from all sorts of military weapons every week) But the main thing is, you'll think twice before occupying a country where citizens own anything from howitzers, 50 cals, 40mm automatic grenade launchers etc.) than countries where citizens have kitchen knives. That's a fact and a cold hard reality. Like I said, good luck to any country that brings their military to ours for a conflict. It should've been that way for all the poor innocent people killed during WWII that couldn't do a damn thing to defend themselves. We will never lose our guns. This is our mentality as a whole, and I'll never live somewhere where I don't have the right to defend myself against some sort of batshit crazy leader hell bent on genocide. Let alone some stupid thief that thinks they can just try to take what's mine. Call the mentality crazy. But us yanks are not about to put up with BS like that. I know I sure as hell won't.

I don't think you're crazy, but maybe you're looking at the world with stars and stipes tinted spectacles.. Don't get me wrong, I agree about what you say in terms of the right of self defence, because our institution simply can't be everywhere all the time, but I don't think the US are any better than any other country in the world. There's no perfect or "better" country as such, because as long as there will be inequality there won't be happiness for all. It's an awful rat race, and when it comes down to the nitty and gritty is you vs the rest of the world, and what I want is that nobody touches my right of self defence, how I enforce it is my problem, pure and simple.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

[COLOR=darkred][B][I]...It is just common sense to own a gun, for your personal protection and defense of your property.

After reading pretty much all the posts in here, all the arguments on both sides, what you wrote there mate pretty much sums everything up;

What seems like "common sense" for an individual, is derived from a person's innermost conviction and fundamental values, and that is the reason why - even though we lot sometimes seems to be very much alike - we are so different... surprisingly different.
For me and many others, the phrases "common sense" and "owning a gun" is a contradiction in terms.

My only input is; we quite clearly live in very different circumstances. We feel sorry for you guys having to live in a society where you can get your hands on leathal guns so easily, and you guys feel sorry for us not beeing able to "defend ourselves".

I really don't see any of us beeing able to convince "the other side" to change stance in this issue. I also know that there is no point for us Europeans trying to convince Americans (whith opposite opinion), as we are mostly beeing glanced upon as beeing "patronizing" when it comes to issues like this (health care included). IF there is to be a change in the US, it has to come from within.

cheers

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

After reading pretty much all the posts in here, all the arguments on both sides, what you wrote there mate pretty much sums everything up;

What seems like "common sense" for an individual, is derived from a person's innermost conviction and fundamental values, and that is the reason why - even though we lot sometimes seems to be very much alike - we are so different... surprisingly different.
For me and many others, the phrases "common sense" and "owning a gun" is a contradiction in terms.

My only input is; we quite clearly live in very different circumstances. We feel sorry for you guys having to live in a society where you can get your hands on leathal guns so easily, and you guys feel sorry for us not beeing able to "defend ourselves".

I really don't see any of us beeing able to convince "the other side" to change stance in this issue. I also know that there is no point for us Europeans trying to convince Americans, as we are mostly beeing glanced upon as beeing "patronizing" when it comes to issues like this. IF there is to be a change in the US, it has to come from within.

cheers

you see, it's broader than that, and guns are only an example, it's about individual freedom and possibility to choose over matters.

I don't want a government to touch my fundamental rights, I want a government to fix the problems of society that bring stuff like crime. The fact that a criminal can potentially get hold of a gun is only the end result of a government that can't prevent crime by applying the right social policies, and convince their population that the solution is to remove guns out of the equation to make our society safer. But it's not the case, people keep on dying, being attacked, raped, robbed, so something doesn't quite work. Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council )*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.
people getting killed are mostly criminals themselves.

Actually the only type of crime that seems to increase dramatically in Sweden are environmental crimes, nothing where a handgun can make a difference..

Edit... robbery has increased marginally the past few years, but it makes more sence (to me anyway) to wear a bicycle helmet than to carry a handgun... looking at risks and potentials to die.

*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.


Statistics for NY:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
quite a dramatic change in comparison to the 90ies.. and it has nothing to do with people arming themselves

Stats for US
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


PS. Oh dear.. Now I did what I said to myself I shouldn't do... get involved in the debate LOL. Point beeing anyway; the only way one can say crime is on the rise, one has to backup with stats, not with just a "feel"..
But again, as we agreed upon,, it all stems down to one's foundation of values.. where we seem to differ

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council http://www.bra.se)*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.


*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.

the main factor is the country and population's wealth: wealthier countries with a small economic inequality among classes have way less violent crimes than others. One of the main drivers of crime is poverty. Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

the main factor is the country and population's wealth: wealthier countries with a small economic inequality among classes have way less violent crimes than others. One of the main drivers of crime is poverty. Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

I totally agree, poverty and economic inequality is indeed a huge reason for rise of crime (if there is one). I would however claim that immigration in itself is not the major issue, but rather how the state/government/society deals with it. Sweden is one of the most open countries in the world when it comes to refugees and immigrants. Of course we have lots of problems that stems from segregation, poverty and alienation... but arming oneself is not the answer. We are talking about a completely different dimension when it comes to these things.
Sweden is not at all that different from the UK in terms on immigrants, in the UK 8.982% immigrants in comparison of national population, Sweden 12.3%

But again, having a society where we have less of economic inequality and poverty is probably the best medicine.. ..sure we have a high tax rate in Sweden, but dare I say ( i have heard it before)... we are no communists LOL

PS again: this is NOT a "my country is better than yours" post.

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Crime is on the rise,

No it's not;


http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-...r-term-trends-

For the purposes of this thread (skeet shooting!) check this out too;

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-...olent-crime-co

Evidently lots more people being thrown out of windows in the US compared to Europe.

[F19_Klunk]

duplicated

[csThor]

The weapons fetish of some people, and the US as a whole, and the vehemence with which people defend it never ceases to amaze and shock me. I, for example, am quite thankful for the strict german laws on weapons ownership and wouldn't mind seeing them made even stricter (to prevent weapons caches with dozens of guns).

But that, I guess, is the fundamental difference in cultures and upbringing.

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.

Breathtaking!! I thought you didn't like racism Stern? Are you a higher crime risk then?