SHOOTING at the OLYMPICS

[Hood]

Originally Posted by swiss

I'm pretty sure I could obtain a gun illegally in less than 3 hours - here in Zürich.

Those who court danger will perish in it.
Btw: Would your POV change if he was, say... 29?

Where do think I live?
Helofly lives here too, I just did some google research.

You sound proud of the fact you can get an illegal gun. I'm sure there are many militia with rifles they don't want. For myself, I have no idea where I'd get an illegal gun from.

I don't care if someone is 9, 19, 29 or whatever age. Life is precious and to celebrate taking it is sick.

I think you live in Switzerland - the name is a little clue.

Hood

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by swiss

You actually feel sorry for an armed, 19 year old criminal?

If you do not, I actually worry for your mental health. (then again you were also advocating the killing of large parts of the human population in another thread, so I actually prefer this criminal over you).
He was just 19 and you have no idea what his story is. It is one thing to take death into account here. But to actually be cheerful about it....that is sick.

And I say that as someone who once has stared into the barrel of a gun himself.

[Sternjaeger II]

I dunno what's more deluded, the fact that you wanna save the whole of the humanity (which, as hard as it is, is just against nature), or the fact that you still think that all this is because of guns.

The problem is human nature and abuse of free will. Nobody forces you to become a criminal, it's down to whether you can deal with being "the baddie" or not.
In the end of the day it's about society values: people that can't get wealthy honestly and are ready to compromise with their conscience will do so.
And as you can imagine many do, and often convince themselves that deep inside they do it for a good reason, but it doesn't change the fact that their misconduct might take them in front of a barrel, an electric chair or a jail.
You hear of a lot of young criminals, but the ones who age well and manage to retire are few and far between, because it's a life that takes its toll on you, mentally and physically.
Guns play a role in that of course, but before guns there were knives, sticks, ropes, swords.. a gun is a tool, but there's a difference to it: it can balance things out. In situations where normally the victim's chance of survivability would be very low (like in the article I posted before), the possibility to have a gun will bring things to a more potentially balance level.
Besides it's the good old "beware of dog" deterrent: if the person in front of you potentially has a concealed weapon you'll think twice before attacking her or being rude.
The big problem with anti-social behaviour in the UK is because the scum knows that people (and the police for the matter) are not ready to tackle or face such thing when it happens on a large scale, and the brainless law system often means they can get away with it..

I had a neighbour here that was arrested because he grabbed a teen that he saw scratching his car. He didn't hit him, he only grabbed his arm, but he got arrested for assault to a minor. Go figure...

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I dunno what's more deluded, the fact that you wanna save the whole of the humanity (which, as hard as it is, is just against nature), or the fact that you still think that all this is because of guns.

There is a difference between reckonging the problem of human nature and adjust to it opposite to actually celebrate the worse parts. If you start actually taking it easy then I do not see any difference to those people comitting those crimes. If at all you support their attitude. Because it is also human nature to act within the confines set by their environment. A more altruistic society "will" produce less crime then a cynical one. That is not utopia, that is obvious if you compare modern states.

If people want to change something, they gotta lead by example. But that is an attitude that is more and more amiss these days, as everybody gets down to "my life, f*uck the rest, their own darn fault." I do not think we ever lived in such cynical times as the current one.

The problem is human nature and abuse of free will. Nobody forces you to become a criminal, it's down to whether you can deal with being "the baddie" or not.

Right in the first part of the sentence, wrong in the second part. Nobody "choses" to be a criminal. I yet have to find a single person who himself would consider the "baddie". Eveybody has justifications for his actions. Expecting that all these people have the education and more important "will" to follow society as a whole is what is delusional.

Ppl grow into the situation they are into. WHen a person only expiriences crap in his life then how the heck to you expect these pople to develop a positive attitude? It is not only unrelaistic, it's outright dishonest for purely lazyness reasons.

In the end of the day it's about society values: people that can't get wealthy honestly and are ready to compromise with their conscience will do so.
And as you can imagine many do, and often convince themselves that deep inside they do it for a good reason, but it doesn't change the fact that their misconduct might take them in front of a barrel, an electric chair or a jail.

Absolutely, but as you know, everybody makes mistakes. That, too, is human nature. And if you never had someone in your life actually telling you how things work, then the question comes up again, how can you expect these people to fit in. Crime rate actually is a very nice pointer to the state of any given society. And as much some people want to push that away, every individual is responsible for what is going on in a society as a whole.

You hear of a lot of young criminals, but the ones who age well and manage to retire are few and far between, because it's a life that takes its toll on you, mentally and physically.

Absolutely, and that is exactly the reason why I gotta laugh at the notion that people actually "chose" that route. In fact, in most cases it is a last ditch effort because people simply do not know how to help themselves. Show me one human being that is inherently "evil" from the get go on and I may change my mind, but most people simply become this way due to expiriences and what their social environment teaches them.

Guns play a role in that of course, but before guns there were knives, sticks, ropes, swords.. a gun is a tool, but there's a difference to it: it can balance things out. In situations where normally the victim's chance of survivability would be very low (like in the article I posted before), the possibility to have a gun will bring things to a more potentially balance level.

which brings us back to the original topic and how much easier guns make killing. By all sides insolved. As I already said before, teh root causes may be differnt, but guns fuel the fire by a margin. Especially in a society that celebrates killing. You gotta wonder why people are so upset about criminals killing others when it is exactly that what society subconciously teaches them from the get go, coupled with "help yourself" and "only do what is good for yourself, with disregard to others". Here only the definition who deserves to be killed is what makes the difference.

Besides it's the good old "beware of dog" deterrent: if the person in front of you potentially has a concealed weapon you'll think twice before attacking her or being rude.
The big problem with anti-social behaviour in the UK is because the scum knows that people (and the police for the matter) are not ready to tackle or face such thing when it happens on a large scale, and the brainless law system often means they can get away with it..

No, you do not. That would require thoughtful being witha keen eye on their surroundings. But such people usually do not become criminals. And when you talk about the scum in the UK; you might want to find out how this scum developed. Those "chavs" and other folks don't just rain from the air during a bad day.

I had a neighbour here that was arrested because he grabbed a teen that he saw scratching his car. He didn't hit him, he only grabbed his arm, but he got arrested for assault to a minor. Go figure...

THAT is a whole different problem. I agree, in many ways ppl are too soft these days. However, one extreme does not justify the other.

[kammo]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I dunno what's more deluded, the fact that you wanna save ...

It's naive to think good guys have to have guns to protect them from the bad guys. It's naive cause nobody knows who is the good guys. World ain't black and white. This thread is a perfect example of that. Seems here is a few individual who celebrate when a person gets killed (eventhoug I agree that when you take a gun do stick up you may get killed. It's and wrong and idiotic thing to do. But I don't go YIPPEE when the robber gets killed cause it drags you to the same level with the criminal) and they consider themselves to be the "good guys". Thank god I don't live close to these people.

One of the easiest way to reduce gun related crimes is to apply strict gun laws. Simple as that. It's not the only measure but it's the first step.

[WTE_Galway]

Americans must in general be a very weak, frightened and insecure people if they feel the need to have armed vigilante members of the public lurking around ready to pull guns and summarily "execute" any random criminal or potential criminal they spot.

I suppose one advantage is you can upgrade the penalty for crime to capital punishment without having to get it through the legislature as the courts get automatically by-passed.

[adonys]

have you ever heard of someone going postal with a .. knife? or a fork? or a sword?

the biggest difference is that selling guns at ease will lead to many cases in which legal-gun-owner people go nuts, and start spreading mayhem around them.

besides, most of the illegal gun traffic in fueled by the legal one: "oh no, sir officer, they thieves stole my car in which I had all my pistols and machineguns and my RPG too!"..

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

have you ever heard of someone going postal with a .. knife? or a fork? or a sword?

yes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7442327.stm

and there plenty of instances of murder with knives, machetes, clubs/ blunt objects, etc

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Americans must in general be a very weak, frightened and insecure people if they feel the need to have armed vigilante members of the public lurking around ready to pull guns and summarily "execute" any random criminal or potential criminal they spot.

I suppose one advantage is you can upgrade the penalty for crime to capital punishment without having to get it through the legislature as the courts get automatically by-passed.

I know some very cool and relaxed americans. It's just in forums like these the worst kind come out. Same with lots of Europeans and others, however.

[Sternjaeger II]

Bewolf, as you know I come from Italy and I can assure you that the nature of crime there is incredibly varied.

I can guarantee you that in modern western society nobody is forced to be a criminal, it's ALL about will. Crime is strongly bonded to the good ol' equation "I can't afford something but I want it = I'll steal it". It's probably driven by class envy or pure greediness. In a way I feel like the minor criminals are driven by "good reasons" but apply the wrong method, whilst the corporate criminals are pure evil greedy monsters with no sense of the future and no respect for their equals. There are many levels as I said, but you CHOOSE to become a dishonest person.

As per your point on guns being fuel for the fire, I don't think it's always the case: it's a society that deems acceptable to play video games that promote murder and gore, or films that make murder part of their normal routine that cause an overall "numbing" towards the whole concept of violence. We love our action movies and cheer when stuff gets blown up, but we kinda forget that on a subconscious level we are making them a form of entertainment and we're not as shocked when we deal with them in real life.

Back in the day real violence was used as a form of entertainment, nowadays we use fake violence, but it works on the same level: a person with mental issues will absorb and assimilate that to a level where it's hard to distinct between reality and fiction, so even the most atrocious crime (like the one in Aurora) might be somehow justified because of the altered state in which the person lives.

And again it doesn't need a gun to be devastating: the guy could have thrown grenades in that cinema and killed and maimed way more people. The Oklahoma bomber didn't use guns for his terrorist attack either, did he?
The problem is not guns, the problem is the society we live in, and how we numbing ourselves in front of real pain and suffer.