The Loneliness of Command.

[MB_Avro_UK]

Hi all,

A Royal Navy ship's Commander in WW2 has a difficult choice. There are helpless survivors in the water ahead, but an enemy submarine has been detected below them. If he attacks the submarine, he kills his own men.

This situation happened in WW2 for all sides.

What would you have done?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQAflZrXpU

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[brando]

Kind of obvious really - he orders the depth charges deployed. The logic is brutal and the decision painful, but he commands a warship, not a lifeboat.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Good book the Cruel Sea! "Snorkers Good-O!" (if I'm remembering it right) Very dramatic

Then again if if the submarine is stationary under a group of men, its it really a threat. Wouldn't it need to be under way to bring it's tubes to bear? In which case it wouldn't be under the men for long. I doubt they would be able to detect the men to maintain station under them.

I would think the biggest threat would be the other pack members that they don't know about.

[jayrc]

As soon as he starts picking up the men in the water the uboat would blow ballast and use dive planes to get out and away, perfect setup for a stern torpedo shot, he made the right decision

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by brando

Kind of obvious really - he orders the depth charges deployed. The logic is brutal and the decision painful, but he commands a warship, not a lifeboat.

Load of bullocks... Thats the Senior Service... The Royal Navy, not some pond rowing club, thats never the captain of a RN destroyer... You lot have no idea. He wouldn't have done it. A u Boat submerged could only do about 6 Knots MAX and making a right old racket too! That destroyer could do about 30! Weaving too! No chance of being attacked by torp, not at full battle stations like that. Its a pure theatrical performance. Pick up the servivors quick sharp and charge about pinging, thats what it would have done.

Once the sub is under water its fairly useless... especially when being persued or searched for by a destroyer...

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I would think the biggest threat would be the other pack members that they don't know about.

If they were there but yea, U boat captains were after tonage not destroyers a 4k GRT. Why not have a merchant at 7,8 or 10k GRT? After all that is actually what they were there for. Now a task force with a Battle ship, or aircraft carrier, now there is a real target! 20 - 40K GRT!

Originally Posted by jayrc

As soon as he starts picking up the men in the water the uboat would blow ballast and use dive planes to get out and away, perfect setup for a stern torpedo shot, he made the right decision

As for it turning around... pffff what you think it is a motorbike? do you know how long it would take a submerged uboat to turn 180 and be out of range of the arming distance? NO... Blow balasts? Are you off you head? A destroyer armament Vs a freshly submeged U Boat at 100 -200 yards in broad daylight? Torp arming is around 350 yards... Not to mention the depth issues with torpeades dotanators and deapth keeping problems. The U boat would not even be able to open the tubes much below periscope depth...



Sorry guys but its Pinewood Studios drama - nothing more... More likly Merchant crews and RN gunners assigned to merchant ships were left to die in the drink from sunk merchants, especially at night...

[Feathered_IV]

Helmsman, bring us directly over the contact.
Sonar, maintain contact with the target. Report the moment the U-boat moves of the echo changes.
Number one, nets and ropes over the side on the double. Make sure those in the water know there is a sub below them and look sharpish.
Engine room, all stop. Be ready to move on my order.
Depth chargers, stand ready.
Signals, alert convoy..

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Helmsman, bring us directly over the contact.
Sonar, maintain contact with the target. Report the moment the U-boat moves of the echo changes.
Number one, nets and ropes over the side on the double. Make sure those in the water know there is a sub below them and look sharpish.
Engine room, all stop. Be ready to move on my order.
Depth chargers, stand ready.
Signals, alert convoy..

Yeah, that is what I thought, too.
Or just wait until the Sub moved away, attack, and take care of the survivors later after dropping them some life vests.

Why he had to attack right away in this situation is a bit odd, given a destroyer was able to maintain contact quite well when moving slowly. And especially given that a destroyer was able to detect the depths a U- Boat was operating in and as such would have been able to make a good judgement if to stop or move away.
A destryoers job, after all, was not to "sink" a sub in the first place, that was the hunter/killer groups task, but to force it to depths and as such make it impossible to catch up to the convoy for an attack.

In that this destroyer was already successfull.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I think the ships need to be fairly motoring when the deploy their depth charges to avoid blowing thier sterns off.

Lower a few boats to pick up the men in the water and keep in contact with the target?

[5./JG27.Farber]

The destroyer had Asdic and a hydrophone too...

[Skoshi Tiger]

I wonder what the actual rules of enguagement were? What orders were given to the Commanders in regarding the destruction of German U boats? I assume the priority whas about as high as you could get?

The blame for the lost of HMAS Sydney which was lost in the battle with the Kormoran (German Raider which was so damaged in the enguagement that the Capitain scuttled her) fell solely on the Sydneys Commander for putting his ship in danger