RAF Bomber crews remembered. Better late than never.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

No. You can read it quick yourself if you really do care about this topic in its entirety. Besides you wouldn't want my "biased view" to get in the way

Seriously, it's a very good read.

Seriously, I have read that stuff, what exactly is it meant to be changing my mind on? how is it meant to inspire me to go and protest against a memorial to the bomber crews?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Seriously, I have read that stuff, what exactly is it meant to be changing my mind on? how is it meant to inspire me to go and protest against a memorial to the bomber crews?

I knew you completely missed the point. Nobody here is saying one should protest against the memorial per se, but it's of vital importance to convey the right message about it, not to turn it into a way of exorcising the dark memory of the mass murder of civilians for no purpose whatsoever.

It really shocks me that there's still people nowadays like Winny who think it was good to bomb the Germans "because they deserved it", this "eye for an eye" attitude doesn't make the act of bombing civilians less of a crime.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I knew you completely missed the point. Nobody here is saying one should protest against the memorial per se, but it's of vital importance to convey the right message about it, not to turn it into a way of exorcising the dark memory of the mass murder of civilians for no purpose whatsoever.

It really shocks me that there's still people nowadays like Winny who think it was good to bomb the Germans "because they deserved it", this "eye for an eye" attitude doesn't make the act of bombing civilians less of a crime.

I didn't miss any points, the allies targeting of civillian infrastructure was less about the actuall killing of civillians and innocents and more about taking the war back to Germany by the only means available, I'm sure if the allies had boots on the ground at that time there wouldn't have been any systematic exterminations of the civil populace, given the level of horror the Nazis (who were Germans) were committing I find Winny's attitude more understandable than Bewolf's bizarre claim Bomber command was formed solely to kill civillians.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I knew you completely missed the point. Nobody here is saying one should protest against the memorial per se, but it's of vital importance to convey the right message about it, not to turn it into a way of exorcising the dark memory of the mass murder of civilians for no purpose whatsoever.

It really shocks me that there's still people nowadays like Winny who think it was good to bomb the Germans "because they deserved it", this "eye for an eye" attitude doesn't make the act of bombing civilians less of a crime.

I never said it was good. Don't put words into my mouth, speak for yourself.

It happened. It probably was criminal. But in the context of the time what else were the allies gonna do? Having a memorial to the men who were in the bombers is simply that. A way to remember very young men forced into a horrible situation with very little chance of survival, who died.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by winny

I never said it was good. Don't put words into my mouth, speak for yourself.

It happened. It probably was criminal. But in the context of the time what else were the allies gonna do? Having a memorial to the men who were in the bombers is simply that. A way to remember very young men forced into a horrible situation with very little chance of survival, who died.

The days such issues become simple is the day the modern nation state is no more.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

The days such issues become simple is the day the modern nation state is no more.

I said that the memorial was simply for the crews, not what they did. I did not say it was a simple issue.

[seaeye]

Originally Posted by winny

I said that the memorial was simply for the crews, not what they did. I did not say it was a simple issue.

I agree with you in that the memorial should be for the crews of Bomber Command. They deserve to be remembered.

I think what the others are getting at is that the memorial may not be seen that way by the wider public, a lot of people in the UK seem to think that whatever Bomber Command did during WW2 was ok becuase it was the good guys doing it, and that is wrong.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

I never said it was good. Don't put words into my mouth, speak for yourself.

you said (and I quote) "Truth is that wartime Germany got what it deserved, no more, no less". That too is a bit of sweeping statement, don't you think?

It happened. It probably was criminal. But in the context of the time what else were the allies gonna do? Having a memorial to the men who were in the bombers is simply that. A way to remember very young men forced into a horrible situation with very little chance of survival, who died.

agree.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you said (and I quote) "Truth is that wartime Germany got what it deserved, no more, no less". That too is a bit of sweeping statement, don't you think?


agree.

yes, I said that. However i didn't say it was a good thing, and I didn't mean it in a nasty 'we gave old Jerry a right good bashing' way either.

My point is that the war had to hapen on German territory. The full horror of war had to be seen by the people. From an allies point of view. The only means available were bombers, and bombers kill civillians. Almost always. Even today.

Conversley i wouldn't object to any German memorial. Memorials are there to remind you of the complete and utter waste of young mens lives over some BS egomania.. On both sides.

Countries should be able to remember the boys who died fighting for some nonsense that the vast majority didn't start, didn't want to be in and ultimately died for. They should also be left to do this wthout people getting all offended by it. It's a memorial ffs. Not a celebration of the bombing of Hamburg.

[WTE_Galway]

You can both commemorate the bravery of men who made great sacrifices in a war and at the same time disapprove of the political decisions that led to the war or to particular actions in that war.

The issues are totally separate. Commemorating the men does not necessarily endorse the actions.

It's also important to bear in mind what constitutes "justified" action very much depends on who won war. Here are Robert McNamarra's (US Secretary for Defense under Kennedy and Johnson) controversial comments about the fire bombing on Tokyo that killed 100,000 civilians in one night during the time McNamarra was serving in the XXI Bomber Command under Curtis Lemay.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62076453370496

We burned to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo – men, women, and children… [U.S. General] Lemay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost … But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win? LeMay said ‘if we’d lost the war, we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals’. And I think he’s right – and I’d say – we were behaving as war criminals. (Robert S. McNamara to interviewer Errol Morris, The Fog of War).