Let's get constructive?

[Pudfark]

That was very well written Catseye and I sincerely
hope that the right person reads it, along with what
Ataros wrote.

Thank You

[Royraiden]

Excellent post!I truly wish for new approach to the bugs issue.Please let us see the changes, inform us what has been done and is going to be done in detail, and for heaven sakes please open a sub forum for the sequel, I think is clear from the last update thread that the majority of the people here are mad because they are given pictures of a game that has not been released while there is so much to be done with a game released more than a year ago.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by Catseye

It is not whether issues are being corrected (because we know that they are), but rather - managing customer expectations and utilizing appopriate methods of communicating. When dates are specified, expectations are raised and those dates are expected to be met. Sometimes issues arise wherein those dates are impacted and they slip. BUT . . . . . this cannot become the norm. It is the management of expectations through communication that is extremely important in business to realize business goals.

And herein lies the crux, me thinks. We've got two examples of outgoing and communicative project manager, Oleg himself and Jason from 777 Studios, and hold them up as shining examples of what we'd like to have, too. But luthier isn't like them - he's the antipode. I remember a statement of him that fits like the notorious fist on the eye socket: He's the kind of developer who has his vision and ideas and would greatly prefer to lock himself up in the Q.T. and not see anyone else until it's ready. I don't think I'm leaning too far out of the window when I guess that having to do any kind of PR or "customer contact" is a step far outside his comfort zone which he tries to evade as much and as often as possible.

[Attila]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Single player is going the way of the Dodo, havent you heard?

[topgum]

Originally Posted by Royraiden

Excellent post!I truly wish for new approach to the bugs issue.Please let us see the changes, inform us what has been done and is going to be done in detail, and for heaven sakes please open a sub forum for the sequel, I think is clear from the last update thread that the majority of the people here are mad because they are given pictures of a game that has not been released while there is so much to be done with a game released more than a year ago.

1+

[flyingblind]

I have to agree that it's good to see a constructive post for a change.

I am not altogether sure that the avalanche of negative diatribes is all bad for the sim though. It dose show that there is a fanatical, addicted even, player base behind the game and given that - reasonableness and patience is hardly likely to be at the forefront. But that is far better for Luthier than complete indifference which really would be the kiss of death.

If the next patch is successful as I am sure it will then most of the negativity will evaporate like a snowball in hell.

I also think that once the major issues are sorted out in CloD then everyone will be clamouring for the sequel and there will be no complaints that it is already well underway.

I think it would be a mistake if Luthier is taking the unpleasantness coming from the forum too much to heart and that is why so little information is coming out. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't so why not just fix the code and shut everyone up once and for all (some hope)?

Given that the sim is far more about historical re-enactment than just a shoot them down sort of game then the OP is dead right and the developers need to look at what the customer base is asking for other than just a game that works as far as they are concerned. Good though that may be.

[Rjel]

Originally Posted by flyingblind

I think it would be a mistake if Luthier is taking the unpleasantness coming from the forum too much to heart and that is why so little information is coming out. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't so why not just fix the code and shut everyone up once and for all (some hope)?

I think the closed mouth approach has divided the community (at least as far as this forum goes) to such a degree that it may not recover. Whether the sim is ultimately fixed or it isn't, there are going to be a lot of "I told you so" comments from one group or the other. Many here are so entrenched in their opinions they can't hear the others opinion as anything but whining or unflagging support. Solid info might save the day. Maybe it isn't too late.

I agree with the original poster's PoV.

[HessleReich]

Ateros deserves a salute! Clear headed and well put sir.

[Damixu]

Originally Posted by Ataros

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

2) According to theory of systems any system without feedback will die very soon. If Luthier does not get clear, strong and ruthless understanding about community priorities from the forums or via BlackSix, IL-2 project will be a dead system soon.

Three cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

Il2bugtracker set up by community is a great tool to check and fine-tune the priorities but it was not visited by Luthier for 2 months already (at least under his forum name to encourage reporters).

Trust is 99% lost as we can see from comments in the update thread. This will definitely lead to the sequel failure, especially if it is released in a new field of MMO(more new code and bugs).

Let's get constructive.
Can anything be done to get trust back and save the company?
1) Get priorities right. E.g. take top 30 most voted bugs/issues from the il2bugtracker.com and fix 1-2 of them every 2 weeks with beta patches. Yes, not be lazy to assemble patches every 2 weeks in spite of the fact it takes time of chief-developer. When 20 bugs out of 30 are fixed, add another 20 to the list and repeat.

2) Fix feedback channel. Kindly ask B6 to present 5 top forum trends (discussed issues) to Luthier on weekly basis and report results on the forums. Sometimes bosses in Russia do not like to hear bad news and are getting angry when subordinates disturb them with them. In this case it takes courage to meet a boss every week and say unpleasant things about wrong priorities, new bugs, ets. But someone has to start doing this to enable feedback channel. Without feedback the system is dead (see link to coop case above).

Please show some real understanding of the situation and practical steps forward. Anything less then that will not help any more. Too little, too late.

Can this be done? This is only BlackSix's and Luthier's responsibility to take this responsibility and do it whatever the cost is. I do not think I can help more with bugtracker, FMB popularisation or whatever. Nothing will help if a company is producing something customers do not want instead of delivering what is wanted most (and voted!).

If you have better constructive ideas please add. I hope B6 will send a link to the thread to Luthier and they both frankly share their ideas on how to get trust back too.

PS. Sorry that I am not around very often. Meanwhile started to learn RC flying in a sim )

The best post on this forum forever!
Except forget the RC part, do the real thing

[Ataros]

Thank you all for your comments.

I agree that il2bagtracker.com does not represent offliners' opinion very well. On the other hand offliners' still need internet to contact Steam. This means they visit forum at least sometimes. Please if you are an offliner, select key bugs that bother you at the bugtracker and add links to your forum signature inviting everyone to vote. I am sure onliners will vote for many of them too, e.g. AI fixes are needed for COOP and general MP missions too.

Someone has to review the AI issues reported on the bugtracker after every patch. After current alpha launch I was reading here that AI got worse in some cases because some radio commands were removed from the menu. Although these commands were not working properly in many cases they were very useful to trick AI into doing something in other cases. Thus their removal got things worse. I am not sure this is properly reported and documented in the bugtracker and if not, the devs may think that they fixed the issues by removing not working commands. This is again a feedback issue. Please go to bugtracker and review these issues.

I do not think we have any better way to get feedback from the community on what the priorities are than the bugtracker. It may not be used now very often because of game-engine issues but will be more useful after the engine is working.

PS. Overquoting is a bad forum sin