Bug 174 on 12lbs boost. Review please.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Agree. In addition the papers David showed specifically mention that ca. 3-4 Bomber Command stations were only to be supplied with 100 octane fuel.

So I guess the million dollar question is who (BC Stations, FC Stations, manufacturers etc.) used and what amount of the fuel, and in what role (operational/non-operational flights, test trials).

Why do you always ignore the other papers that show the rule of thumb was to have 5/6th of the fuel to be 100 octane and 1/6th 87 octane. You know that only 4 No 2 Grp stations were 100% equipped with 100 Octane.

[Crumpp]

I guess if you look a little bit more, you can find a dozen others, at least half of which could be used with the Merlin.

If you look JtD, it is in every airplane's published material.

Just like the Spitfire Mk I Operating Notes clearly states DtD 230 is the specified fuel.

It is not always in the same location or format, though. Unfortunately they did not think to standardize Operating Instruction formats by convention until much later.

The convention's in place during WWII only agreed the information must be published and followed.

[Crumpp]

The evidence for 100% 100 octane use by RAF FC during the BofB is extensive and overwhelming.

Keep repeating it and might come true!!

It worked for Dorathy.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Keep repeating it and might come true!!

It worked for Dorathy.

You have documentation showing how much 87 octane was consumed by RAF Fighter Command.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Other than it is the specified fuel and listed in all the Operating Notes besides the Spitfire Mk II as the required fuel for the type?

Or the fact it is the largest portion of aviation fuel in the Air Ministry and 100 Octane does not make a significant portion of fuel at the airfields until after October 1940?

Seems a pretty lock tight case that 87 Octane fuel was used in considerable amounts....at least according to the Air Ministry.

Actually the proportion of 100 Octane use cf "Other Grades"* rises well before October and stocks of 100 Octane were far healthier than "Other Grades" well before October.





Once again, the only engines cleared to use 100 Octane at the time were Merlin IIs (in reality no Merlin IIs were in frontline use by June 1940) IIIs, XIIs and XXs and Bristol Mercury XV. 52,000 tons of 100 Octane was used July-end October and only a few aircraft types were able to use the stuff.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Just the fact it is the specified fuel and the FC consumed millions of gallons of it.

Not that Crumpp has actually proven this by providing one single piece of documentation specifying that only a few frontline FC units were allowed to use 100 octane while the rest had to make do with 87. Payton-Smith specifies that 87 octane was required for non-operational purposes.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Keep repeating it and might come true!!

It worked for Dorathy.

*Crumpp and Kurfurst continually refer only to 87 Octane when other grades of fuel, such as D.T.D 224 (78 Octane, used for de H Gypsy engines etc) were also lumped in with 87 Octane, so the actual amounts of 87 Octane in stock and consumed are lower than the charts would suggest.

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

If you look JtD, it is in every airplane's published material.

Just like the Spitfire Mk I Operating Notes clearly states DtD 230 is the specified fuel.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no611-100oct.jpg
and
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no74-100oct.jpg
and:



Apparently not.

You are quoting from a pre 1940 manual.

[NZtyphoon]

As it stands neither Crumpp nor Kurfurst have added anything useful to this thread, including any documentation showing that FC required the majority of its squadrons to continue to use 87 Octane while only a small proportion are to use 100; all they are doing is regurgitating everything they've previously pushed in the 170 plus page thread on 100 Octane, ignoring everything that's been posted there. I cannot see any future in responding to either of them as long as they have nothing new to present which comprehensively refutes everything that has been posted here and elsewhere.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Why do you always ignore the other papers that show the rule of thumb was to have 5/6th of the fuel to be 100 octane and 1/6th 87 octane.

Because AFAIK there are no such papers. The one you refer to merely makes a practical example for fuel storage with ad hoc numbers, as you are well aware.

You know that only 4 No 2 Grp stations were 100% equipped with 100 Octane.

Apparantly you are aware of that too - Bomber Command was using 100 octane as of May 1940. Of course other Blenheim stations must have had some, too, for the some of their fuel tanks to help with takeoff at great loads, given the Blenheims modest capabilities as a bomber, it was important to get any sort of range (the other alternative to overboost was lightening the aircraft, ie. carrying less fuel).

Yet you have claimed:

We also know that Bomber Command, Transport Command, Coastal Command, Non Operational units didn't use it until post August 1940

You see David, one of the reasons only a priviliged few is buying your story is that you have continously misrepresent these papers.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Because AFAIK there are no such papers. The one you refer to merely makes a practical example for fuel storage with ad hoc numbers, as you are well aware.



Apparantly you are aware of that too - Bomber Command was using 100 octane as of May 1940. Of course other Blenheim stations must have had some, too, for the some of their fuel tanks to help with takeoff at great loads, given the Blenheims modest capabilities as a bomber, it was important to get any sort of range (the other alternative to overboost was lightening the aircraft, ie. carrying less fuel).

Yet you have claimed:



You see David, one of the reasons only a priviliged few is buying your story is that you have continously misrepresent these papers.

No 2 Group was using 100 Octane from May that we both know. We both know that the rest of Bomber Command didn't use it until August. We both know that is the position and we both know that you haven't given any evidence for the use of 87 octane after June in FC.

If I confused anyone by referring to Bomber Cammand and no 2 Group I apologise completely.