Throwing some light on rates of turn

[SEE]

I have seen a 109 match my turn but only on one occaision (with this patch).
I didn't make a mental note of the exact circumstances for that particular encounter so I wouldn't risk jumping to any conclusions.

For me, the Spit is still very capable regards a range of defensive maneouvres, particularly at altitude. 'Turning' isn't always the best option anyway and one of the reasons I avoid and dislike 'low altitude' DF's. I tend to think that they limit my options and the fight thus becomes 'predictable' for my 109 opponent.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by SEE

For me, the Spit is still very capable regards a range of defensive maneouvres, particularly at altitude. 'Turning' isn't always the best option anyway and one of the reasons I avoid and dislike 'low altitude' DF's. I tend to think that they limit my options and the fight thus becomes 'predictable' for my 109 opponent.

I agree. Sound tactics can make up for a lot in terms of performance difference. There used to be an article floating around about a guy who would go into those arcade servers where all the planes are available at every base. He would take up a 109E and fly it super high and super patiently, only diving when someone roaring around in their FW190 or P47 wasn't paying attention.

Pretty awesome article, actually, and really underscores the first lesson of air combat: Always secure an altitude advantage.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I agree. Sound tactics can make up for a lot in terms of performance difference. There used to be an article floating around about a guy who would go into those arcade servers where all the planes are available at every base. He would take up a 109E and fly it super high and super patiently, only diving when someone roaring around in their FW190 or P47 wasn't paying attention.

Pretty awesome article, actually, and really underscores the first lesson of air combat: Always secure an altitude advantage.

Since FMs are not accurate IMO many Spitfire pilots should use this period of time to train themself on being successfull without TnBing like dogs in heat.

I've not voted for the 100 octane bug as a priority since I hope that meanwhile the overall quality of the RAF players can improve, since it's so boring to hunt guys running circles at 1km that most of my squadmates are not flying in public servers anymore.

There are some great Spitfire pilots out there: IMO many should learn from them without thinking to the actual speed performances of their plane.

Attacking with altitude advantage is only the first step...

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Since FMs are not accurate IMO many Spitfire pilots should use this period of time to train themself on being successfull without TnBing like dogs in heat.

I've not voted for the 100 octane bug as a priority since I hope that meanwhile the overall quality of the RAF players can improve, since it's so boring to hunt guys running circles at 1km that most of my squadmates are not flying in public servers anymore.

There are some great Spitfire pilots out there: IMO many should learn from them without thinking to the actual speed performances of their plane.

Attacking with altitude advantage is only the first step...

Well, many of us have had over a year "to train [ourselves] on being successful", then with the latest patch we suddenly have the enhanced opportunity to become even MORE "successful" -- with the RAF fighter FM's getting further nerfed.

As many Blue 109 pilots say: "It's the pilot, not the plane." Well, until the pre-patch Spitfire IIa's were rolled out. Suddenly those Blue pilots weren't saying that anymore! LOL

None of the fighters, LW or RAF, have accurate flight modelling at present. The two that actually came closest, the pre-patch Spitfire IIa and Hurricane Rotol, were penalized because of their relative performance at the time to the 109's inaccurate FM. Go figure: a "coding optimization" patch also managed to slip in FM changes detrimental to the RAF fighters.

No recognition by 1C was given to the 12 lbs boost/100 octane issue with the Spit Ia and Hurri Rotol. It's a shame. The Blue pilots are being denied the "opportunity to be more successful" and are saddled with B&Z impunity over RAF fighters.

[drewpee]

I see no point in continually quoting RL performance figures at this time. The argument just goes around in circles. I think for the moment until the Dev's are ready to implement more complexed flight/damage model keeping teams balanced is important for online play. Online if one plane is far superior then those who prefer to dominate rather than be challenged will forgo alliances and go for the killer plane. When the 109e-4 was arguably the better ac I would fly the 109e-1. When it was the spit-II dominating I would fly the spit-I. If I'm going to win I like it to be on equal terms. I know I'm not alone, many pilots are tired of imbalanced planes.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

No recognition by 1C was given to the 12 lbs boost/100 octane issue with the Spit Ia and Hurri Rotol. It's a shame. The Blue pilots are being denied the "opportunity to be more successful" and are saddled with B&Z impunity over RAF fighters.

Blue pilots had the opportunity to learn in 10 years of IL2... flying a truck called Fw190, provided with ridiculous gunsights and gas tanks, against anti-G planes who didn't overheat and could lose oil for more than 10 minute (I'm not talking only about Spitfires, of course... do you know the old P39?)

They had the opportunity to learn teamwork tactics and to be patient, otherwise they would be fresh meat...

Don't worry, one day they will model the 100octane version and I'm sure nobody will say a thing against... provided that it's modelled as a real plane and not as anti-G machine like the Oleg's planes...

Be sure, SpitIIs were/are/will be not a problem until they are not flown in the correct way.

Just for your knowledge the last time I've flown alone in CloD I found myself against a Spit a 5000km over the channel... he tried an headon (a stupid manouvre I say), he made a 180° flat turn while I was trying an Immelmann turn that I failed to complete because on my lack of experience on CloD planes.

So I was in disadvantage and I've started a gentle dive for my territory... the guy followed me gaining as I was keeping my speed very high (probably a SpitII but who cares?)... he followed me over my home base, down at 1km where two other 109s helped me so that I could take him down.

Simply that was a moron.

Now I'm really getting frightened that this uprising for the 100octane Spitfire as priority, historical or not, it's only to kill the enemy without difficulties... since it's easier to stick you nose on someone 6 gaining on him instead of to lose time in learning tactics and teamwork.

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

.. since it's easier to stick you nose on someone 6 gaining on him instead of to lose time in learning tactics and teamwork.

I hear your pain.. but there will always be one aircraft which dives faster/ more stable than the others. Which ever this happens to be, that guy will always be able to follow other aircraft down and kill them. (until we get some actual working clouds to hide in)

In my opinion (based mainly on reading pilot's biographies etc) I would think that, generally the German built fighters (109s and 190s) were "better" in the dive than the British variants. And only the P-51 and P-47s were really their equivalent in the dive - as a general rule.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by pstyle

I hear your pain.. but there will always be one aircraft which dives faster/ more stable than the others. Which ever this happens to be, that guy will always be able to follow other aircraft down and kill them. (until we get some actual working clouds to hide in)

In my opinion (based mainly on reading pilot's biographies etc) I would think that, generally the German built fighters (109s and 190s) were "better" in the dive than the British variants. And only the P-51 and P-47s were really their equivalent in the dive - as a general rule.

You forget the mighty Tempest!

But it's not really a issue of who's the faster IMO.

The problem resides in the realizing of your plane performance and the enemy's one, and how to fight because of these. Understanding your chances regarding energy state, relative position and territory over which you're fighting.

If I'm in the slower plane, for example a 190 against a P51, do you really think I'm going to follow the P51 in level flight KNOWING that I can't gain on him? No... first I'll try to not be in energetic disadvantage and if I'm forced to fight in that position then I will not stand on the P51's six for more than 5 seconds, above all if he's pointing at his territory. Of course he will attack me again when I turn away.. as he should.

The famous DnB... the most liked tactic of 190s... an impossible tactic without slower planes flown by guys with target fixation issues.

And if you are afflicted by this terrible curse that's target fixation then why don't you fly with a wingman? (here I'm not referring to you pstyle )

You need only to stay over your home base and every 10 minute you'll see some enemy guy coming to strafe you on the landing strip, coming ALONE... give him a faster plane, nothing will change. Except that he will reach you in 30 seconds but it's enough to be killed by your wingman.

[ATAG_Snapper]

@Manu: Any time I've gone head-to-head with a 109 it's been accidental -- usually not paying attention -- and I've always lost! LOL

The 12 lbs boost/100 octane historically was for emergency use only. If a Spitfire pilot uses it for a prolonged chase over the Channel he's asking for oil on his canopy and the 109 to circle back and demolish his badly-shaking aircraft. It DOES make the Spitfire extremely dangerous to the 109 pilot who gets careless in a boom & zoom attack, but the Spit will be far from invincible. It WILL discourage 109 pilots from loitering over RAF airfields as they will no longer enjoy total impunity from Spits clawing their way upwards to meet their airfield suppression attacks.

Spitfires are SUPPOSED to be frightening to its opponents, just as the 109's are frightening to the Spitfire pilots.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

@Manu: Any time I've gone head-to-head with a 109 it's been accidental -- usually not paying attention -- and I've always lost! LOL

The 12 lbs boost/100 octane historically was for emergency use only. If a Spitfire pilot uses it for a prolonged chase over the Channel he's asking for oil on his canopy and the 109 to circle back and demolish his badly-shaking aircraft. It DOES make the Spitfire extremely dangerous to the 109 pilot who gets careless in a boom & zoom attack, but the Spit will be far from invincible. It WILL discourage 109 pilots from loitering over RAF airfields as they will no longer enjoy total impunity from Spits clawing their way upwards to meet their airfield suppression attacks.

Spitfires are SUPPOSED to be frightening to its opponents, just as the 109's are frightening to the Spitfire pilots.

And I can't wait for a so well modelled Spitfire.

I'm only stating that it's not really a priority in the sim IMO.. of course it HAS to be modelled for historical accuracy, but if the number of downed Spits is always upper than the number of lost 109s it's not because RAF misses the 12lbs boost... it's because the wrong tactics.

Don't get me wrong, Spitfires ARE FRIGHTENING (seriously, since my first objective is to avoid my own KIA/MIA) but only IF they are in the correct position and flown by an expert guy.

If I scroll the ingame score table and I read that a pair of the DangerDogz veterans are currently flying on a Spit you can bet I'm really worried about this.

But if I find a lonely spit 2km under my position why should I be worried? Probably only if it was a Oleg's Spit25lbs...

About headons, my squad severely prohibits them... there is actually one pilot who keeps doing them but it's the black sheep of the squad (and it's funny since he's our only real military pilot ).

Anyway inside the message board of 12oclockhigh.net a guy posted this (confirmation needed):

This report is in "The Captive Luftwaffe" by Kenneth S. West, pp127-135:

"Mock dog-fights were staged between the Bf 109 and a Spitfire, both flown by pilots of the RAE. In addition, a number of fighter pilots, all of whom had recent operational flying experience, visited the RAE with their Spitfires and Hurricanes in order to obtain further combat practice. During these flights AE479 (W.Nr. 1304) was flown by RAE pilot, Flying Officer J.E. Pebody, who had completed the handling tests and was thoroughly familiar with it, and could thus be expected to get the best out of it. ...

"When the Bf 109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that the British aircraft turned inside the German machine without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn. In a surprisingly large number of cases, however, the Bf 109 succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests, merely because their pilots would not tighten up the turns sufficiently from fear of stalling and spinning. ...

"During the dog-fights against the Hurricane and Spitfire it became apparent that these fighters could out-turn the Bf 109 with ease when flown by determined pilots. Since the minimum radius of turn without height loss depends largely on stalling speed, and hence on wing loading, the poor turning performance of the Bf 109 may be ascribed to its high wing loading, 32.2 lb/sq ft compared with 24.8 lb/sq ft on the Spitfire. The minimum radius of turn without height loss was obtained by flying as near to the stall as possible at comparatively little g; this radius was about 696 ft on the Spitfire as against 885 ft on the Bf 109."

As I said many times.. flying was a matter of bravery... it was a dangerous thing and actually some "pilots" were braver than other "pilots"...

It happens in IL2, ROF or DCS too... I'm afraid of the stall/spin and my squadmate, flying the same plane with the same loadout, can out-turn me.