Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Crumpp]

Winny,

The Operating Notes say that in the January 1941 edition. None of the earlier editions make any note of it at all under operating limitations. 100 Octane is a minor footnote of "may be used.....IF converted" in all previous editions of the Operating Notes.

It is a fact the RAF did not complete conversion to 100 Octane until around January 1941. That is evident in the Operating Notes.

[Crumpp]

But at the start of this thread even that notion was disputed, and

Read my first post in this thread. Your perception is totally wrong if you include me, fruitbat.

I said I don't know and niether does anyone else. We still don't know an exact date.

It is a fact that conversion of all operational Spitfire Mk I's was important enough to warrent a warning in paragraph 1, operating limitations of the Pilots Operating Notes in January, 1941.

We can definately say that full conversion did not take place in June 1940 or earlier as no such warning exist's in the Operating Notes.

Based on the ever increase amount of 100 Octane at the airfields evidenced in Table II, it is highly unlikely it was the major fuel until around October, 1940.

were spits running around with the potential to go to 12lbs boost, and they were almost certainly in 11 group during the BoB, yes/no?

Yes but not all of them and certainly not the entire Fighter Command.

The frequency would depend on the timeframe and the dates one picks for the battle. It looks to me like the fuel came into use in July and gradually became more common until total conversion around January.

If you say the Battle of Britian lasted from July to 15 September, 100 Octane is pretty limited.

If you say the battle went from July to December then 100 Octane was probably the standard at the end of it.

[fruitbat]

I have no idea where your first post in this thread is, and i wasn't talking about you specifically.

Since there were some operational history reports posted here somewhere showing Hurricanes that had been adapted to 100 octane fuel running around in the Battle of France, which ended in may, i conclude quite confidently that 100 octane MUST of been introduce before July, when i don't know myself.

I am not disputing your pilots notes and total conversion of every spit no matter where it was stationed in jan'41 though.

From the ops records i've seen here and elsewhere, it is clear from the dates which are always on these documents that many frontline if not all 11 group squadrons were converted in the main before July, so i do disagree with your opinion

If you say the Battle of Britain lasted from July to 15 September, 100 Octane is pretty limited.

as far as 11 group is concerned.

[Crumpp]

Winny,

It is a fact Dowding rotated and rested his squadrons.

It is not speculation or assumption, the squadrons were rotated and rested. It was very contraversial and that argument is covered in some detail in the official RAF History. I personally believe it was an essential part of the RAF victory.

Keep in mind that tactically, the RAF SE fighters took a pasting from the Luftwaffe SE fighters with the exception of July 1940. Very good pre-war planning, good leadership, most significantly brave men and women all allowed the RAF to increase its strength during the battle to ultimately prevail.

For the Luftwaffe, it is an example of tactical success ending in a defeat in the campaign.

[Crumpp]

I have no idea where your first post in this thread is, and i wasn't talking about you specifically.

Ok, we are good.

so i do disagree with you

No issue at all.

squadrons were converted in the main before July

Take the ones that specifically say "100 Octane fuel in use" like this one:



Just like this one, it will specifically state if they are using the fuel.

Throw out the ones that just note conversion like this one:



And you will have a more accurate idea of the timeline and extent.

It won't be dead on but at least you won't have conversion mixed in with use.

There is some very good knowledge in your community. It is hampered by the "us vs them", win-lose mentality, emotional investment, and immaturity of some the members.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Take the ones that specifically say "100 Octane fuel in use" like this one:



Just like this one, it will specifically state if they are using the fuel.

Throw out the ones that just note conversion like this one:

Note what the 611 Sqn ORB says:

21/3: Fuel: The new aircraft are one by one being converted...for the use of 100 Octane fuel, instead of D.T.D 230.

By arbitrarily "throwing" the 611 Sqn ORB out because it says "conversion" instead of "using the fuel" the fact that it notes that 100 octane fuel was being used instead of 87 octane is completely missed, plus it says 9 aircraft converted. So dump that "rule".

Here are two other ORBs from February 1940, from before before the issue of AP1590B/J.2-W, March 20 1940. That's four squadrons, plus four airbases North Weald, Digby, Hornchurch (11 Group) and Drem 13 Group confirmed to be converted or in the process of being converted to use the fuel in Feb-March 1940 alone. All indicate that 100 Octane fuel was the only type of fuel being used by converted aircraft.

Before you say "only four squadrons" these are ORBs of the time which have been found so far, that does not mean that these were the only squadrons in the RAF to convert.

Those from February also show that the conversion of Merlins was well underway before A.P1590B/J.2-W was issued, confirming what the document says.

[NZtyphoon]

Now, to France 7 May 1940: the RAF stored 660,056 gallons, 2111 tons of 100 octane versus 561,076 gallons, 1,778 tons, of 87 Octane in France: this was before the balloon went up, 4 Hurricane squadrons listed plus 9 Blenheim, all operating with 100 Octane:





and was requesting extra fuel for Blenheims, 188 gallons each for the outer tanks, plus 280 gallons of 87 Octane for the inner tanks.



And here the projected requirement for 100 Octane was far greater than that for 87: 1,579,740 gallons, 5,007 tons V 950,000 gallons or 3,011 tons.



If the RAF was only interested in building up stocks of 100 octane fuel before releasing it for use why would 100 octane fuel be sent to France to support the squadrons of the BEF? I presume your assumption is that the 4 Hurricane squadrons and 9 Blenheim squadrons were to be used for "operational trials?"

On 7 May more 100 Octane was stocked in France than 87 Octane, and projected requirements for 100 Octane were also far greater - this for a fuel you say was only used in "operational trials".

The requirement to supply 9 Blenheim squadrons - note on the second to last page the stipulation "ALL reinforcing Blenheim units require aviation fuel, per aircraft as follows: (i) 100 octane. 188 gallons (ii) D.T.D 230. 280 gallons - with 100 octane contradicts the pre-war paper which stipulates that only 16 fighter squadrons and a couple of Blenheim squadrons were to use 100 octane fuel before September 1940.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

If the RAF was only interested in building up stocks of 100 octane fuel before releasing it for use why would 100 octane fuel be sent to France to support the squadrons of the BEF? I presume your assumption is that the 4 Hurricane squadrons and 9 Blenheim squadrons were to be used for "operational trials?"

Don't be ridiculous NZ, obviously one of the safest places you could store and build up your stock of precious fuel is on the front line facing the enemy when you in full retreat. Don't use it mind, there are only lives at stake - it's more important to build it up first.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Winny,

It is a fact Dowding rotated and rested his squadrons.

It is not speculation or assumption, the squadrons were rotated and rested. It was very contraversial and that argument is covered in some detail in the official RAF History. I personally believe it was an essential part of the RAF victory.

Keep in mind that tactically, the RAF SE fighters took a pasting from the Luftwaffe SE fighters with the exception of July 1940. Very good pre-war planning, good leadership, most significantly brave men and women all allowed the RAF to increase its strength during the battle to ultimately prevail.

For the Luftwaffe, it is an example of tactical success ending in a defeat in the campaign.

I'm sorry but.. I said I know he rotated squadrons I have 42 books on the subject of the BoB. I know a lot about the subject.

It seems that you are failing to understand the difference between rotated and withdrawn.

The reason I brought it up was because..

You said "If logistics said I only had enough fuel for 16 squadrons by September then you can bet when a squadron rotated out for rest and refit, they would go back to 87 Octane and their replacement would come from that pool of converted units.
"

There was no pool of converted units - all of the RAF's FC squadrons were active.

I'm saying that to suggest that they forced pilots back onto 87 octane when they moved to a different group does not stack up.
100 octanes only real advantage was in rate of climb. All groups were operational and all groups were involved in combat.

The RAF at the beginning had around 2,200 aircraft IN TOTAL FC, BC ,CC and transport. FC had around 6-700 aircraft. This is where the focus for 100 octane was placed.


EDIT: And you also said "I highly doubt the Air Ministry had 100 Octane fuels in any substantial quantity in 1938"
So I post the original documents which show they did have large stocks and you come back that 'logistical has nothing to do with operational" or words to that effect.

[Osprey]

I'm waiting for his smoke and mirrors after that one Winny.

I suspect he won't be on for a while though because the 190 owner is not happy with his waxing.

"Is that 3 coats of wax Biff?"
"Yes sir Mr McFly, 3 coats as you said"
"Now now Biff, are you sure? You're not lying to me are you?"
"Err....maybe it was 2, I'll just get started on the 3rd coat now Mr McFly"
"Ahh Biff, what a character!"