Crusaders AD 2012

[Igo kyu]

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

[Artist]

CWMV, AndyJWest,

you're not discussing the same matter.

AndyJWest: CWMV is right when it comes down to fighting.
CWMV: Andy is correct when your getting into conflict between your oath and a government turned not only immoral but evil (i.e. in my country between 1933 and 1945 - heartfelt thanks to your ancestors for rescuing us from it, btw.): What do you do when you're ordered to commit atrocities (like German soldiers were then)?

Artist

[CWMV]

Ah I see.
Well the thing of it is that this sort of thing happens so infrequently that I Didn't consider it.
US soldiers have the right to refuse to follow an unlawful order.
But ultimately its not up to you to decide. If you refuse such an order you'll be detained and court marshaled. Then your superiors will decide if the order was unlawful or not.
But again, this sort of thing happens so infrequently that its not really worth consideration. The vast, overwhelming majority of soldiers will never receive an unlawful order.
And it doesnt bear much on the subject of the thread. Not much to do with unit symbology/tradition and esprit de corps.

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

I disagree.

[AndyJWest]

"I, ----- do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Yup. The words may well be 'close to Holy' to you, CWMV. That people can evoke religion to justify acts they would otherwise not engage in is one reason I am an atheist. As for "You don't serve your country, in the military anyway, by questioning orders", how do you think the United States came into existance in the first place?

[CWMV]

By civilians questioning the status quo, raising an Army, and that army following its orders to fight.

It is the civilian populations responsibility to make things as they want them to be by observing the world around them and having their elected representatives act accordingly.
A soldier does not do such things. He is a tool of the people he represents. Of course he may have his own opinion, but it doesn't matter when his people tell him to march.
So if you don't like the war your country is in, don't blame the guys fighting it, blame yourself for electing the men that told the soldiers to march.
Remember-public servants-we serve the will of the public.

Oh and don't throw the religion thing around, its pointless and your not the only atheist here.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by CWMV

I disagree.

From the point of view of the crusaders, it wasn't a war for God against evil?

We can argue about whether people who think like that are deluded, but I do believe that's what was and is thought by crusaders and jihadists.

[AndyJWest]

don't throw the religion thing around

Given that you compare yourself to a Crusader, and present an oath of allegiance as 'holy', I think it is you that is 'throwing the religion thing around. As for ' electing the men that told the soldiers to march', I didn't vote for the men who gave orders for an invasion of Iraq based on a pack of lies.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Given that you compare yourself to a Crusader, and present an oath of allegiance as 'holy', I think it is you that is 'throwing the religion thing around. As for ' electing the men that told the soldiers to march', I didn't vote for the men who gave orders for an invasion of Iraq based on a pack of lies.

I did. If your mad about it, blame me. I stand by my vote. Just pathetic it took two wars. So, I wonder how well oiled the machine really is. Hopefully I live long enough to see the attack on the domestic enemies play out. Seems empty words at this point when you have a government openly and actively engaged in all forms of corruption for so long. But I keep voting and paying my taxes. I think it must be quite difficult in current day for a young man to sign that pledge and volunteer, given all this day to day corruption. But I'm glad somebody is still willing to do it. We haven't lost it all, yet.

[Oldschool61]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Yup. What does history tell us about the Crusades? A series of ridiculous military adventures with no clear goal, no prior understanding of the 'enemy', and no obvious motivation other than as a distraction from domestic problems? You guessed it...

Actually the crusades were more of a genocide type battle on both sides. To groups of delusional people worshiping space gods who think theres is best.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

We haven't lost it all, yet.

Actually - you did.
The chengs beat you strategically everywhere, they even will dominate the pacific in the near future.
Have you ever wondered why they behave like they do?

Party A(USA) spends billions on Army they dont need and on a war which offers nothing in return.

Party B(China) spends almost nothing on its army but billions on infrastructure projects all over the planet(moon scouting too, actually).

What will the the situation be in 20 or 30 years to come?
The chengs will have earned trillions on their projects and almost singlehandedly control all strategic resources on the planet. Given the fact there was no thread in the past decades they also have enough cash to build one huge mofo Army in no time. And they already control their own "business" airfields in every corner of the world.

The USA on they other hand will be bled dry - without the power to counter it. Ever heard of they expression "being on small boat to china"?

Dont believe me?
Why do they buy a shitty old communist carrier? Because they need to know how to build them. Once they figured it out, they can produce them like bakeries donuts.
Same with the china stealth fighter, they dont want to produce a top of the line fighter, they especially dont want to scare the crap out of the todays superpowers. Imho, this is a large scale prototype run. Learn how this stuff works and how fast you can produce it.
If you got blueprints and understanding of the technology, the only two things keeping you back are: Money and manpower. They have both.

just my ¢2