Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Kurfurst
It is a shame that you concentrate on throwing accusations around but don't reply to any questions or supply any evidence.

If that's true you were talking to yourself in the last 750 + posts. Interesting.

I do not claim to have a perfect case, but a strong one whereas yours is at best weak supported mainly by bluster.

Actually, you only have rhetoric like the above.

I stand by my case and the evidence put forward to support it.

Well let's see it. Do you have a paper saying 100 octane is to be/was introduced to all Squadrons? No.

Your case stands on two main items,
1) the pre war objective of 16 fighter squadrons and 2 bomber squadrons.
2) Pips posting,

It's rather dishonest to constantly try to misrepresent other people's positions, for lack of proof on your own point.

You dismiss 1 by claiming it was changed, but have presented no evidence of any change intended.

You dismiss 2 by the arguement that you have not seen the papers yourself, called a researcher a liar and a fraud, yet I have asked perhaps a hundred times to see the meeting file in its completeness, and not the cropped version you deem fitting to share. You never answered that, and refused to show the whole file to anyone even if its not a problematic at all. You stick to showing only select papers from it. I think it speaks for itself.

3, Morgan and Shacklady. You dismiss them for god-knows-what reason.

4, Your own papers of the May 1940 and previous meetings all which say 100 octane was issued only to select units. You dismiss that as 'a typo in the document'. Sure, right, if the papers don't say what you say, the papers are in error, not you.

5, Actual consumption figures of 87 and 100 octane fuel between May 1940 - November 1940 which all show that 87 octane was dominant fuel used until October 1940, and issues oddly increased when Fighter Command activies. You dismiss that claiming that it refers to fuel consumed by other commands, but supplied again no evidence.

6, Spitfire manuals noting both 87 and 100 octane limits at the time. You dismiss them with the weird argument that despite the manual is clearly marked June 1940, it refers to Spitfire variant which according to you, was already withdrawn from service and sent to training units where it supposedly used 87 octane (no evidence presented) before it even entered service...(!).

7, ... and the very fact that the small circle of die-hard RAF fans who are claiming that 100 octane was the only fuel used operationally were completely unable to show ANY kind of evidence for it in 10 years of desperate and fruitless research.

All which are in perfect agreement and logically follow each other and do not need the mountain of 'explaining', twisting and dismissal which you seem to rely on when the documentary evidence do not support your case.

Tragically we are still awaiting your evidence to support anything, anything at all and all you can turn to is bluster and accusation.

IMHO what is tragic is that you actually believe that you can sell this silliness and expect people suddenly forget about the whole thread and what was posted. Like I said, if I supposedly haven't supplied 'anything at all', what were you posting about in the last 700 post...? What were you trying to dismiss so desperately?

As I said I stand by my case, am happy to let the evidence support it and let people decide on the evidence for and against the use of 100 Octane

They have already decided against your claims, as did the developers. So now you change the argument, and say that you are arguing for the use of 100 octane - a fact everybody knows for 70 years and agrees with - from your original obscenely silly claim that each and every operational sortie, unit and station was using 100 octane fuel, and not a single one used 87 octane, ever, so the developers just got everything wrong, and this sim should only represent the best and most potent plane variants the RAF had in 1940, and all lesser variants should be removed, mission designers, server should not be able to decide for themselves, whether they buy your story or not, it needs to be enforced on them.

In your world, it happened overnight, universally, by the touch of a magic wand, and in complete secrecy which is why there's no written trace of it.

So why should I or anyone waste any more time on you, tell me? You're unable to give a convincing case, behave like a fanatic, and do not even present an intellectual challenge or interesting evidence. You merely repeat the same over and over again, try to win the debate by having the last word, and when people got bored with it, you call them out like a child..

So present your evidence or just don't expect me to be bothered by this ruckus.

[Glider]

Check posting 697

[Kurfürst]

I checked it, its incoherent nonsense IMO.

Now answer the question why every paper speaks of select squadrons, and none of all squadrons, thank you.

[Glider]

Kurfurst
My case is outlined in the posts 681/682 that cover my belief in the definition of the words select. It shows the development path of the process. I recognise that you will never agree with me or I with you but that isn't important.
What is important is that third parties see the arguments and evidence for both and are able to make up their own mind.

All I am asking you again is to support or even define your case. You believe that select is a limited number that is clear, but what you believe that number to be we don't know. Is it the 16 + 2, is it the 30+ squadrons we have combat records for, is it something between the two, is it simply less than 100% of fighter the squadrons? Tell us what is your belief

So lets start with something simple:-

a) How many RAF fighter squadrons do you belive used 100 Octane in the BOB?
b) How do you support that view?

[Ernst]

I am watching the posts. My personal conclusion is:

For sure the 100 octane was present. But to me there is no evidence that the all fighters used 100 octane. How many is difficult to say.

If i was the developer i ll model the 100 octane, 87 octane, and C-3 for the Germans and let the mapmakers decide.

Obviously 100 octane was not a panacea and not one of the main reasons for the Luftwaffe failure. The battle was fierce and the acs were very well matched. RAF loses were great even with the 109s and Luftwaffe operating in the limits of its logistics and radius. In other scenarios the Spits were not so succesfull.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Ernst

I am watching the posts. My personal conclusion is:

For sure the 100 octane was present. But to me there is no evidence that the all fighters used 100 octane. How many is difficult to say.

If i was the developer i ll model the 100 octane, 87 octane, and C-3 for the Germans and let the mapmakers decide.

Obviously 100 octane was not a panacea and not one of the main reasons for the Luftwaffe failure. The battle was fierce and the acs were very well matched. RAF loses were great even with the 109s and Luftwaffe operating in the limits of its logistics and radius. In other scenarios the Spits were not so succesfull.

It's not difficult to say, there are dozens of papers posted here listing operational squadrons.

I'm going to take a wild stab at this and suggest that you fly Luftwaffe. I'm guessing this based on your request for C3 (which frankly I have very limited knowledge of, other than, I gather, a tiny minority of aircraft were trying it out). Therefore I conclude that you would consider it to your advantage to have underperforming RAF to fight online. Fine, enjoy it. But if you could take off the flying hat and put on the historian hat, for a moment, and evaluate the documents posted (AND I MEAN THE OFFICIAL RECORDS) then you should be able to deduce that the RAF had it and used it on the front line for all fighting squadrons.

Fortunately I make maps for our server so I'll make sure that 100 is available if 1C can get around to finishing what they started.

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Osprey

It's not difficult to say, there are dozens of papers posted here listing operational squadrons.

I'm going to take a wild stab at this and suggest that you fly Luftwaffe. I'm guessing this based on your request for C3 (which frankly I have very limited knowledge of, other than, I gather, a tiny minority of aircraft were trying it out). Therefore I conclude that you would consider it to your advantage to have underperforming RAF to fight online. Fine, enjoy it. But if you could take off the flying hat and put on the historian hat, for a moment, and evaluate the documents posted (AND I MEAN THE OFFICIAL RECORDS) then you should be able to deduce that the RAF had it and used it on the front line for all fighting squadrons.

Fortunately I make maps for our server so I'll make sure that 100 is available if 1C can get around to finishing what they started.

Yes i fly the Luftwaffe. And even with this 100 octane is possible to perform very good against any Spitfire since i would fly within the performance envelope of the 109. Above the 5000m the 100 octane advantage was lost. I simply have to fly in my terms and fly higher were the 109 was better. And engage and disengage at high speeds.

One of the articles posted above to prove the 100 octane use also says that since the most of the air fighting in BoB was above the 4000m the 100 octane were not a panacea, and any advantage were minimized or lost.

Put what UFO do you want in you server they ll go earth in flames. My pleasure will be higher in disapointing the overconfident spitfire pilots. The 109s difficulties acctualy is because the pilots are trying to counter the spits lower than 4000m or even in deck.

[Al Schlageter]

5, Actual consumption figures of 87 and 100 octane fuel between May 1940 - November 1940 which all show that 87 octane was dominant fuel used until October 1940, and issues oddly increased when Fighter Command activies. You dismiss that claiming that it refers to fuel consumed by other commands, but supplied again no evidence.

What evidence have you supplied Barbi that the numbers for 87 fuel are only for Fighter Command?

[Glider]

Evidence re use in Other Commands, permisson given 7th August.

[Al Schlageter]

Will we are waiting for Eugene to post his RAF OoB, here is the OoB for 53 Spitfire and Hurrican squadrons, from the official RAF site.

1 Squadron

Stations: Tangmere 23 June 1940, Northolt 1 August 1940, Wittering 9 September 1940

3 Squadron

Stations: Wick 23 May 1940, Castletown 2 September 1940, Turnhouse 14 September 1940, Dyce 9 October 1940, Castletown 12 October 1940

17 Squadron

Stations: Debden 19 June 1940, Tangmere 19 August 1940, Debden 2 September 1940, Martlesham Heath 8 October 1940

19 Squadron

Stations: Fowlmere 25 January 1940, Duxford 3 July 1940, Fowlmere 24 July 1940, Duxford 30 October 1940

32 Squadron

Stations: Biggin Hill 4 June 1940, Acklington 28 August 1940

41 Squadron

Stations: Catterick 8 June 1940, Hornchurch 26 July 1940, Catterick 8 August 1940, Hornchurch 3 September 1940

43 Squadron

Stations: Tangmere 31 May 1940, Northolt (D) 23 July 1940 to 1 August 1940, Usworth 8 September 1940

46 Squadron

Stations: Digby 13 June 1940, Duxford 18 August 1940, Digby 19 August 1940, Stapleford Tawney 1 September 1940

54 Squadron

Stations: Rochford 25 June 1940, Hornchurch 24 July 1940, Catterick 28 July 1940, Hornchurch 8 August 1940, Catterick 3 September 1940

56 Squadron

Stations: North Weald 4 June 1940, Boscombe Down 1 September 1940

64 Squadron

Stations: Kenley 16 May 1940, Leconfield 19 August 1940, Boscombe Down 1 September 1940, Biggin Hill 13 October 1940, Coltishall 15 October 1940

65 Squadron

Stations: Hornchurch 5 June 1940, Turnhouse 28 August 1940

66 Squadron

Stations: Coltishall 29 May 1940, Kenley 3 September 1940, Gravesend 11 September 1940, West Malling 30 October 1940

72 Squadron

Stations: Acklington 6 June 1940, Biggin Hill 31 August 1940, Croydon 1 September 1940, Biggin Hill 14 September 1940, Coltishall 13 October 1940, Matlask 30 October 1940

73 Squadron

Stations: Church Fenton 18 June 1940, Castle Camps 5 September 1940

74 Squadron

Stations: Hornchurch 25 June 1940, Wittering 14 August 1940, Kirton-in-Lindsey 21 August 1940, Coltishall 9 September 1940, Biggin Hill 15 October 1940

79 Squadron

stations: Biggin Hill 5 June 1940, Hawkinge 2 July 1940, Sealand 11 July 1940, Acklington 13 July 1940, Biggin Hill 27 August 1940, Pembrey 8 September 1940

85 Squadron

Stations: Debden 22 May 1940, Croydon 19 August 1940, Castle Camps 3 September 1940, Church Fenton 5 September 1940, Kirton-in-Lindsey 23 October 1940

87 Squadron

Stations: Church Fenton 26 May 1940, Exeter 5 July 1940

92 Squadron

Stations: Pembrey 18 June 1940, Biggin Hill 8 September 1940

111 Squadron

Stations: Croydon 4 June 1940, Debden 19 August 1940, Croydon 3 September 1940, Drem 8 September 1940

145 Squadron

Stations: Tangmere 10 May 1940, Westhampnett 31 July 1940, Drem 14 August 1940, Dyce 31 August 1940, Tangmere 9 October 1940

151 Squadron

Stations: North Weald 20 May 1940, Stapleford Tawney 29 August 1940, Digby 1 September 1940

152 Squadron

Stations: Arklington 1 October 1939, Warmwell 12 July 1940

213 Squadron

Stations: Arklington 1 October 1939, Warmwell 12 July 1940

222 Squadron

Stations: Kirton in Lindsay 4 June 1939, Hornchurch 29 August 1940

229 Squadron

Stations: Wittering 26 June 1940, Northolt 9 September 1940

232 Squadron

Stations: Sumburgh 17 July 1940, Castletown 18 September 1940, Skitten 13 October 1940, Drem 24 October 1940

234 Squadron

Stations: Arklington 1 October 1939, Warmwell 12 July 1940

238 Squadron

Stations: Middle Wallop 20 June 1940, St Eval 14 August 1940, Middle Wallop 10 September 1940, Chilbolton 30 September 1940

242 Squadron

Stations: Aldergrove 20 July 1940

249 Squadron

Stations: Leconfield 18 May 1940, Church Fenton 8 July 1940, Boscombe Down 14 August 1940, North Weald 1 September 1940

253 Squadron

Stations: Kirton-in-Lindsey 24 May 1940, Turnhouse 21 July 1940, Prestwick 23 August 1940, Kenley (A) 29 August 1940, Kenley (G) 16 September 1940

257 Squadron

Stations: Arklington 1 October 1939, Warmwell 12 July 1940

263 Squadron

Stations: Grangemouth 28 June 1940, Drem 2 September 1940

266 Squadron

Stations: Wittering (D) 7 April 1940, Wittering (C) 14 May 1940, Tangmere 9 August 1940, Eastchurch 12 August 1940, Hornchurch 14 August 1940, Wittering 21 August 1940

302 Squadron

Stations: Leconfield 13 July 1940, Northolt 11 October 1940

303 Squadron

Stations: Northolt 22 July 1940, Leconfield 11 October 1940

310 Squadron

Stations: Duxford 10 July 1940

312 Squadron

Stations: Duxford 29 August 1940, Speke 26 September 1940

401 Squadron

Stations: Middle Wallop 21 June 1940, Croydon July 1940, Northolt Mid-August 1940, Prestwick 11 October 1940

501 Squadron

Stations: Croydon 21 June 1940, Middle Wallop 4 July 1940, Gravesend 25 July 1940, Kenley 10 September 1940

504 Squadron

Stations: Castletown 21 June 1940, Catterick 1 September 1940, Hendon 5 September 1940, Filton 26 September 1940

601 Squadron

Stations: Tangmere 17 June 1940, Debden 19 August 1940, Tangmere 2 September 1940, Exeter 7 September 1940

602 Squadron

Stations: Drem 28 May 1940, Westhampnett 13 August 1940

603 Squadron

Stations: Turnhouse 5 May 1940, Hornchurch 27 August 1940

605 Squadron

Stations: Drem 28 May 1940, Croydon 7 September 1940

607 Squadron

Stations: Usworth 5 June 1940, Tangmere 1 September 1940, Turnhouse 10 October 1940

609 Squadron

Stations: Northolt 19 May 1940, Middle Wallop 5 July 1940

610 Squadron

Stations: Gravesend 26 May 1940, Biggin Hill 2 July 1940, Acklington 31 August 1940

611 Squadron

Stations: Digby 10 October 1939

615 Squadron

Stations: Kenley 20 May 1940, Prestwick 29 August 1940, Northolt 10 October 1940

616 Squadron

Stations: Leconfield 6 June 1940, Kenley 19 August 1940, Coltishall 3 September 1940, Kirton-in-Lindsey 9 September 1940