Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Crumpp]

Historical research rarely comes up with 100% proof

Nothing in this thread has convinced me anything other than we do not have enough information.

As an example, Read what Shacklady and Morgan have to say about the 100 Octane fuel.

1. Strategic Fuel Reserve was to be 800,000 tons on hand before ANY aircraft flew using the fuel.

2. Sixteen fighter squadrons and two bomber squadrons were to begin using the fuel in September 1940.

If you look at the consumption figures, you will see it is not until September 1940 that 100 octane consumption begins to equal half of the total fuel consumption.

16 squadrons is just over 1/3 of Fighter Command and our multi engine bombers of course consume more fuel proportional to the number of engines.

You can really see the drop in consumption of 87 Octane after September, 1940. Which also begs to ask, who is using all the 87 octane during July and August of the BoB???

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...=20110&page=23

Point is you can speculate until the cows come home. Without a document saying listing it as the specified fuel, this is all assumption.

I am out of this debate at this point. There is nothing intelligent to discuss about it until a fuel specification order or something saying all units are to use it is found. All that can be said as a fact is the RAF transitioned from 87 Octane to 100 Octane by early 1941. Have fun guys and enjoy what you do.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Nothing in this thread has convinced me anything other than we do not have enough information.

That's pretty much my take on things too.

I mean, it's pretty obvious 100 octane was used during the BoB, i just can't be sure, in the academically justified sense of the word, about the exact extent and timeframe of its use with the information we have in hand.

That's one of the reasons i would like to see both versions (87 and 100 octane) modeled in the sim.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Nothing in this thread has convinced me anything other than we do not have enough information.

Read what Shacklady and Morgan have to say about the 100 Octane fuel.

1. Strategic Fuel Reserve was to be 800,000 tons on hand before ANY aircraft flew using the fuel.

2. Sixteen fighter squadrons and two bomber squadrons were to begin using the fuel in September 1940.

If you look at the consumption figures, you will see it is not until September 1940 that 100 octane consumption begins to equal half of the total fuel consumption.

16 squadrons is just over 1/3 of Fighter Command and our multi engine bombers of course consume more fuel proportional to the number of engines.

You can really see the drop in consumption of 87 Octane after September, 1940.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...=20110&page=23

Once again you are quoting from a March 1939 document which bears no relationship to what actually happened in 1940;

Multi engine bombers, apart from some Blenheims - which were using 87 octane as well as 100 octane fuel - were still using 87 octane, including Wellingtons, Whitleys and Hampdens. Did you notice that these bombers were engaged in intensive operations against targets in Germany, and against French shipping ports holding concentrations of landing barges etc? Then there is Coastal Command to consider.

What on earth do you mean by "If you look at the consumption figures, you will see it is not until September 1940 that 100 octane consumption begins to equal half of the total fuel consumption." Heavy bombers using 87 octane fuel? Do the maths.

[lane]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

<...>The ~50,000 tons consumed must have been burned in the pilots cars and motorcycles.

Well, some of the pilots noted using 100 octane in thier cars, but 50,000 tons worth? I doubt it!

Tony Bartley DFC, Smoke Trails in the Sky, (Crecy Publishing Limited, Wilmslow, Cheshire, 1997), p. 35.


Tim Vigors DFC, Life’s Too Short to Cry, (Grub Street, London, 2006), p. 137.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Nothing in this thread has convinced me anything other than we do not have enough information.

As an example, Read what Shacklady and Morgan have to say about the 100 Octane fuel.

1. Strategic Fuel Reserve was to be 800,000 tons on hand before ANY aircraft flew using the fuel.

Using that approach the UK used 87 octane to the end of the war.

2. Sixteen fighter squadrons and two bomber squadrons were to begin using the fuel in September 1940.

Pity about the combat reports we have from 34 squadrons

If you look at the consumption figures, you will see it is not until September 1940 that 100 octane consumption begins to equal half of the total fuel consumption.

That is because permission for all combat comands to use 100 octane wasn't given until August 1940. So of course consumption would increase.

16 squadrons is just over 1/3 of Fighter Command and our multi engine bombers of course consume more fuel proportional to the number of engines.

You can really see the drop in consumption of 87 Octane after September, 1940. Which also begs to ask, who is using all the 87 octane during July and August of the BoB???

The Bombers of Bomber Command and aircraft of Coastal command who were not allowed to use 100 Octane until August.

Point is you can speculate until the cows come home. Without a document saying listing it as the specified fuel, this is all assumption.

I am out of this debate at this point. There is nothing intelligent to discuss about it until a fuel specification order or something saying all units are to use it is found. All that can be said as a fact is the RAF transitioned from 87 Octane to 100 Octane by early 1941. Have fun guys and enjoy what you do.

Paper attached re the authority for all combat commands to use 100 Octane in August attached.

You are the first person I have come across who calls official original documents held in the National Archives speculation.

[TomcatViP]

Can we lock this thread ?

Nothing as come new and every pages is wallowed by huge images of the same "pieces of evidence".

I won't matter of this if only the insults were not part of the debate. Sadly it's not.

I guess that some hve blended an inch of 100 octane in their milk

[Al Schlageter]

2. Sixteen fighter squadrons and two bomber squadrons were to begin using the fuel in September 1940.

By Month (Total 23 Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons for which I have found using 100 fuel before Aug 1940)

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

Now what were you saying Eugene.

[lane]

Film of "The Daily Inspection of the Spitfire". Copies may be obtained from the Imperial War Museum (35 mm).

The aircraft being serviced is a 609 Squadron Spitfire I R6692 - first flight 3 June 40, 609 Sqdn 7 June 1940, Struck off charge Cat E 2 Sept 1940.
The aircraft is shown in a pre Battle of Britain white and black underside paint scheme. Note the 100 painted on the fuselage at the fuel tank location.
(Some Operations Record Books such as 602 Squadron's ORB noted a switch to all duck egg blue underside paint scheme in mid June.) 609 Squadron was stationed at Northholt during June of 1940 when the instructional film was shot.

Still taken from the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyJiAdMD8AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv2x6RQxFDo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUnun6QmVXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__b34cEORE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ObQ4aoRT50

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Glider

I should add that I have looked at most of the squadron record of units that formed after May 1940 and that I checked their records up to May 1941. In none of those records was there any mention of converting to 100 octane or CS props....

Its also worth repeating that I have been all through the Air Minestry files, the Oil Co ordination Committee file, the Chief of the Air Staffs papers both committee and private files and of course the War Cabinet file. None of these have any mention of a halting of the role out, of any shortage or any restart. If anyone believes that RAF squadrons went into combat using 87 octane then prove it.

Interesting how few papers, or little other evidence, has been presented by those who subscribe to the notion that the RAF purportedly refused to issue 100 octane fuel to about 2/3rds of its fighter units, while complaining that there is little evidence to the contrary presented by people who have actually spent hours physically searching the archives, and have posted the results ad nauseum.

Nor have these people explained how the RAF prevented none but "concerned" or "selected units", 16 squadrons, from using the fuel?

To KF, VIP et al:

Could you please explain in concise detail how the RAF selected the 16 squadrons, and how the RAF made sure that only 16 squadrons at a time used 100 Octane fuel, and could you provide documented evidence of the processes and logistics used by the RAF to ensure that only 16 squadrons at a time were allowed to use the fuel during the B of B?

Could you please provide some documented evidence that there was a shortage of 100 octane fuel during July, August, such that FC had to stop using the fuel?

Could you please provide documentary evidence of FC pilots (apart from Gladiators, NF Blenheims and Whirlwinds) using 87 octane fuel in combat between July and September 1940?

Pleeease???

[NZtyphoon]

Film of "The Daily Inspection of the Spitfire". Copies may be obtained from the http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/100020765 Imperial War Museum.

There is a DVD including "The Daily Inspection of the Spitfire", and 3 other IWM Spitfire films: http://www.iwmshop.org.uk/product/15...ntline_Fighter