Flight Modeling vs. Flight Handling.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Nothing personal Doggles, but I suspect you have never driven on a race track (road course).

No offense taken. You're somewhat correct, I've only been out on a track twice ever.

Two vehicles of similar performance can behave very differently and one can indeed be easy to extract it's performance from while the other is a workout to drive.

Similar performance, or identical performance? First of all that's different terminology than you were using before and secondly I'd agree that two similar vehicles can behave differently.

But two identical vehicles cannot behave differently. If they behaved differently then they are either not identical or are not receiving the same inputs.

They are all easy. And if they are not (rare) then players tweak thier joysticks or put trim on a slider, or what have you, to make them easy.

I'm sure that driving sim players are tweaking their steering response curves too.

[TomcatViP]

For those that are convinced that two aircraft performing the same are behaving in the same manner, pls take a look at january issue of Air Force Monthly. There is an interview of an ex F-16 pilot flying now F-15C in Hawaï...

You'll change your mind in a single page of reading

What we lack in CoD is inertia (mainly in rotation) and external perturbation of flows around our aircraft.

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

No offense taken. You're somewhat correct, I've only been out on a track twice ever.

Similar performance, or identical performance? First of all that's different terminology than you were using before and secondly I'd agree that two similar vehicles can behave differently.

But two identical vehicles cannot behave differently. If they behaved differently then they are either not identical or are not receiving the same inputs.

I'm sure that driving sim players are tweaking their steering response curves too.

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

I suspect it will take another 5 to 10 years of computer development to enable the kind of nuance I'm getting at here.

[Les]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

I suspect it will take another 5 to 10 years of computer development to enable the kind of nuance I'm getting at here.

This can be experienced now in the more advanced car-racing sims. With all the aero, tyre, suspension, gearing and other parameters you can adjust (sometimes with the assistance of telemetry systems like those used in real-life), two drivers can get the same performance (with lap times identical down to a fraction of a second) out of two differently set up cars of exactly the same make and model. Swap those two drivers cars around and with practice they might be able to adjust to each others set ups and still achieve the same lap times, but not without a struggle.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by mazex

I don't understand why X-Plane is so "hyped" - or have I missed to un-tick some default "arcade" setting?

Look at the clip below where I do my regular test of the FM in X-Plane (latest version 10). Some barrel rolls right after take off.

I'm sorry for being a bit evil in my comments

The thing with civilian flight sims is that a lot depends on the actual flyable and how it's modelled. They are very modular in nature and not all flyable aircraft use all of the code.

The same holds true for FSX too, i've seen aircraft that make CoD's CEM seem like a stroll in the park and i've seen others where keeping within the engine operating limits is just done for immersion and there's no consequence if you go over them.

This is pretty much the case with Xplane too, the core sim engine can calculate a bunch of stuff, but does it only if the flyable you are using requests that information. For example, i've downloaded the Xplane 10 demo and while their stock aircraft handle in a believable fashion (eg, crosswinds on light GA aircraft will lift your wing and throw you off course, needing aileron into the wind to keep staight, etc), some havn't included cowl flap operation and the CEM is simplified.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

Maybe. But those cars will differ significantly in some quantifiable manner, which is all I'm saying. There's no magic.

It might not be the "headline" numbers like top speed or horsepower that are different, but some number, somewhere is causing the difference that the driver feels.

I agree with you that a lot of these numbers are probably not modelled in games these days, but I feel like that's a budgetary consideration, not a system-requirements consideration.

[Codex]

While I'm no engineer, I did work on the engine production line of Toyota for 4 years, the last 2 were on the engine testing bays.

No two engines were ever identical. In particular the power output and emissions they produced where all different. While they were within tolerances and differences were very marginal, there were differences non the less. Multiply this by adding other components to the cars (gearbox, drive train etc.) no two cars rolling off the production line were ever the same. You probably wouldn't notice the difference immediately but as the car was used over time, tolerances become wider as the car loosens up and quirks begin to appear.

Saying that two identical cars / aircraft would perform / feel the same is correct, but only on the drawing board. In real life it's very hard to get two mechanical devices to perform "exactly" the same. There will always be some variation in real world products, otherwise we wouldn't need to have warranties would we

[ElAurens]

But I'm not saying two identical machines, I'm saying different machines with identical (or close enough for the real world) performance numbers.


I realize this is a somewhat cerebral discussion.

There have been posts in the past, going back all the way to the start of IL2, where there are those that say that if two aircraft have the same wing loading and power loading then they will perform the same.

This is a common thread among many sim pilots.

I'm saying this is not necessarily the case. One could be so difficult to fly that achieving it's max performance would be nearly impossible, whereas the other could have such beautifully harmonized controls that relatively inexperienced pilots could achieve the outside of the envelope with ease.

In the sim this difference would be so slight that it would make no difference.

It this making sense?

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

I realize this is a somewhat cerebral discussion.

Since when did pilots fly on intellect alone...

I reasoned today that Pilot experiences where based upon:

Aircraft handling
Pilot Energy
Aircraft Energy

Thats it.

[Codex]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

But I'm not saying two identical machines, I'm saying different machines with identical (or close enough for the real world) performance numbers.


I realize this is a somewhat cerebral discussion.

There have been posts in the past, going back all the way to the start of IL2, where there are those that say that if two aircraft have the same wing loading and power loading then they will perform the same.

This is a common thread among many sim pilots.

I'm saying this is not necessarily the case. One could be so difficult to fly that achieving it's max performance would be nearly impossible, whereas the other could have such beautifully harmonized controls that relatively inexperienced pilots could achieve the outside of the envelope with ease.

In the sim this difference would be so slight that it would make no difference.

It this making sense?

Argh, I should have quoted excerpts of the thread to direct my responses.

I was wanting to present my experiences to CaptianDoggles point about two identical machines performing the same (post #16).

As for your initial post El, I understand where you're coming from. From the many posts, videos and books I've read / viewed over the years I think it boils down to wear and tear. It's no secret that pilots found things "different" when jumping into a new plane from their old one.

I do recall during my Airforce Cadet days when taking a joy flight in a Macchi trainer at RAAF East Sale. The pilot I flew with had recently transferred from F-111's to be an instructor, and he was having a hard time adjusting to the Macchi because he was accustomed to having his own ride (F-111). At East Sale, he had use what ever jet that was available on the day. He mentioned that he found himself always checking the IAS gauge before going into an maneuver not just because of safety, but also because all the trainers "felt" different to him. He knew all the jets could all perform at the same specs, but to him they all had their own "feel".