Bomber boys - bbc one

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

So what's a statue if not a celebration of someone?

a reminder?.......

next time theres a 'Harris day parade' then let me know, somehow it just seems to evade the calendar through lack of publicity.

[Hood]

I'm struggling to think of anyone military we celebrate as a nation in the UK, or any military event. I guess D-Day and Battle of Britain day get a small mention but that's it. Like most countries we remember and honour the dead and the sacrifice they made.

I also view statues as reminders, not as glorification of the individual. Statues don't mean anything unless you know who the person was. As the biggest bogey man in history I'd even say Hitler deserves a statue. Problem is it wouldn't be a focus for reflection on mankind's predilection for tragedy but would be a symbol for Nazis everywhere and it might be viewed as celebratory in that context. I guess that is a thought for another time and place.

Hood

[ATAG_Dutch]

Celebrate - mark with a festival or special event

Commemorate (relating to stone, plaque etc) - be a memorial of.

Definitions from OED.

And Stern, if you can't see what was funny about that statement, given the bases of National Socialism, I'm not going to help.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Celebrate - mark with a festival or special event

Commemorate (relating to stone, plaque etc) - be a memorial of.

Definitions from OED.

Fine, why does Bomber Harris deserve a memorial then? I understand a memorial for bomber command, who celebrates everybody, but the memorial of the bomber command by means of the statue of a single controversial general? I am quite surprised you don't see my point.

And Stern, if you can't see what was funny about that statement, given the bases of National Socialism, I'm not going to help.

ah, I imagined it would have been another of your patronising comments, what I don't understand though is why everything has to be a comparison to Nazis?! We were talking about racial segregation in other countries, not Germany

the US were a racist country with or without the Nazis, which ran on a completely different agenda apparently:

This is the (in)famous sentence that the Tuskegee Airman Alexander Jefferson once said about his life as a POW and his comeback to the US: "Having been treated in Nazi capture like every other Allied officer, as we disembarked from the troop ship, a white soldier at the bottom of the gangplank shouted: “Whites to the right, n*****s to the left.” I replied: “Goddammit, nothing has changed!”

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

a reminder?.......

next time theres a 'Harris day parade' then let me know, somehow it just seems to evade the calendar through lack of publicity.

..a reminder? Of what exactly? Of area bombing? Because when I google Sir Arthur Harris the first thing that comes out it's his Area Bombing thing..

It's like saying "Oh, I will make a statue of Mussolini because he improved the rail system and introduced the pension schemes, just as a reminder you know.."

this is when you get desperate for some sense Bongo, your explanation really doesn't compute

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Fine, why does Bomber Harris deserve a memorial then? I understand a memorial for bomber command, who celebrates everybody, but the memorial of the bomber command by means of the statue of a single controversial general? I am quite surprised you don't see my point.

I think we get your point, but are not entirely sure it needs to be highlighted as any proof that as a nation the UK 'celebrate' the killing of civillians, thats just ridiculous, it is merely reminding us of the existence of this character and what he accomplished (good and bad).

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

ah, I imagined it would have been another of your patronising comments, what I don't understand though is why everything has to be a comparison to Nazis?! We were talking about racial segregation in other countries, not Germany

the US were a racist country with or without the Nazis, which ran on a completely different agenda apparently:

This is the (in)famous sentence that the Tuskegee Airman Alexander Jefferson once said about his life as a POW and his comeback to the US: "Having been treated in Nazi capture like every other Allied officer, as we disembarked from the troop ship, a white soldier at the bottom of the gangplank shouted: “Whites to the right, n*****s to the left.” I replied: “Goddammit, nothing has changed!”

Again everyone is aware of this.........relevance to the OP is a bit lost.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Possibly. But then Sperrle and his brave men were fighting a war on behalf of, and for the perpetuation of, Nazi political doctrines - as opposed to a war against them, were they not?

The issue isn't one of celebrating the killing of civilians, it's an issue of commemorating the defeat of Nazism and the individuals who contributed towards this end.

As Bongo pointed out, the British don't 'celebrate' Harris, but there is a statue of him, along with one of Dowding and lots of Churchill.

Surely I don't have to literally repeat myself?

You yourself have used the phrase 'Let's not forget' in a singularly 'patronising' statement. Memorials are placed expressly for this purpose.

What you think of the individual is quite up to you, but it is important to remember, don't you think? Children point and ask questions, also a good thing.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..a reminder? Of what exactly? Of area bombing? Because when I google Sir Arthur Harris the first thing that comes out it's his Area Bombing thing..

It's like saying "Oh, I will make a statue of Mussolini because he improved the rail system and introduced the pension schemes, just as a reminder you know.."

this is when you get desperate for some sense Bongo, your explanation really doesn't compute

Yes.....why not? why not remind the world of terrible events in history and the people involved, no I will stick to my explanations in comfort, I obviously don't need to come to terms with anything, whatever you choose to represent Bomber command anybody wanting to find out more will eventually discover Arthur Harris.

Theres a waxwork of Hitler at Madame Tussauds, obviously your interpretation of what a statue or likeness is designed to achieve is different from most others.

Google is completely irrelevant in this whole discussion, when I google the same I find the Wiki which clearly mentions all the controvesy surroundin him and the statue, but reminds us of why the 'veterans' themselves sanctioned it.

I don't get desparate at all, but your need to prove the UK is some sort of maniacal German hating nation seems very desparate and computes even less.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Surely I don't have to literally repeat myself?

You yourself have used the phrase 'Let's not forget' in a singularly 'patronising' statement. Memorials are placed expressly for this purpose.

Exactly. So the message that one conveys should be: "Let's not forget that this man caused the unnecessary death of hundreds of thousands of people on both sides", right?

What you think of the individual is quite up to you, but it is important to remember, don't you think? Children point and ask questions, also a good thing.

I agree, but there are different methods of remembering, I'm sure that kids can wait to get a bit older before they learn about the endeavours of Harris.
The darkest chapter of the RAF surely doesn't deserve a statue of his mastermind.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

a full figure statue was meant as a commemorative form reserved for men that acted for the good of their own country, contributing in some substantial, determining and above all exemplar way.

My bold.

Yes.