Oleg and Team.

[Feuerfalke]

Originally Posted by LEXX

Feuerfalke::
The answer is -- the same way we see who's a cheater in our social life.

Exactly, Lexx. But do we really want that? Do we really want to simply find out by getting cheated? Wouldn't we quickly jump to conclusions, ban people because their nicknames are registered over at AAA, because their statements in the forums leave open the conclusion that he actually uses mods, no matter if for his online installation or otherwise? Reminds you to some bad things happening right in front of your doors?

How many people over the last years were accused of being cheaters in IL2, just because they were pure lucky, had a connection problem that saved their virtual butts or used the well-known print-screen thing. Would you ban them all? Who would still be allowed to play online? How do you think you can identify somebody who uses bright orange-skins for enemy-planes or (like the "mods" for Quake3) landscapes without textures, clouds, fog or icons on, while the server doesn't allow that. Just from the Kill-Death-Ratio?

[LEXX]

Feuerfalke::

Exactly, Lexx. But do we really want that? Do we really want to simply find out by getting cheated? Wouldn't we quickly jump to conclusions, ban people because their nicknames are registered over at AAA, because their statements in the forums leave open the conclusion that he actually uses mods, no matter if for his online installation or otherwise? Reminds you to some bad things happening right in front of your doors?

How many people over the last years were accused of being cheaters in IL2, just because they were pure lucky, had a connection problem that saved their virtual butts or used the well-known print-screen thing. Would you ban them all? Who would still be allowed to play online? How do you think you can identify somebody who uses bright orange-skins for enemy-planes or (like the "mods" for Quake3) landscapes without textures, clouds, fog or icons on, while the server doesn't allow that. Just from the Kill-Death-Ratio?

Members of private servers don't run around accusing each other of cheating like how you describe here. The anti-social behavior you depend on for your argument here is confined to, for example, ubi.com members playing anonymous public servers.

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice. Now, there could be an issue for Newbies and their first time coming Online, before they find friends to fly with, people that they trust. But that is also like real life social interaction. The best things in life take time to accomplish.

[Feuerfalke]

Originally Posted by LEXX

Feuerfalke::

Members of private servers don't run around accusing each other of cheating like how you describe here. The anti-social behavior you depend on for your argument here is confined to, for example, ubi.com members playing anonymous public servers.

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice. Now, there could be an issue for Newbies and their first time coming Online, before they find friends to fly with, people that they trust. But that is also like real life social interaction. The best things in life take time to accomplish.

I'm not talking about pay-for-play-servers and not about purely admins, but if I'd count how many times the word "cheater" was written over the last week on Warclouds, for example... And I only flew a few sorties!

Well, at least I'm very impressed you know all people personally for a long time, you meet on online servers. I'm playing IL2 online since it's original release and I can't say that for me, not even daring to say that I know what the game looks like on their monitors. Hats off to you, if you got that wisdom and knowledge - must have been a hard work.

[msalama]

OK, as a former IL-2 player this is what I think:

You can't really compare SH3 and IL-2. The first one is primarily an offline game, and while you can go multiplayer there the gameplay is still against an AI opponent only. And there's a fundamental difference between the participants all fighting against a common enemy vs. them going at each others' virtual throats anyway - the former promotes unity and teamplay, the latter discontent and competetiveness to the point of the combatants using whatever means in their disposal to win... including cheating.

So in that sense IL-2's anonymous online play is indeed as good as dead now. And it's not as if there wasn't any cheating before this thing went public; there was, but the situation today still isn't the same because you have no way of telling who's flying what now, or even whether the CRT=2 thingy works anymore. So instead of the implicit trust we had w/ the locked FMs of old what we have now is oodles of paranoia and mistrust - and that in itself is enough to wreck the anonymous online component of this game for good, even if no-one took any advantages of the FMs being currently exposed.

Yah, sounds like I'm whining, I know, but I'm not. Hell, I would've quit playing IL-2 even if this thing had never happened, because the old girl was getting pretty shallow and repetitious after all these years anyway. So in that sense I really don't care what's happening w/ the game, but I still think anyone claiming this thing hasn't changed anything fundamental are, frankly speaking, talking out of their butts.

But then, s*t happens and all things must pass, eh?

But as regards modding IL-2 I really don't see the point myself, even beyond any moral and cheating issues. I mean, what IS the point? If you use mods online you get branded as a cheater, and if you use them offline you still have to suffer the godawful AI and other assorted limits of an ancient game engine. Well each to their own, of course, but I'd still use my time in something more worthwhile if I were you

OK, rant off & back to SH3 + GWX 2.0, sez Herr Kaleun Marcus Salmowsky, the commander of U-55 S! all and keep the sunny side up guys.

[msalama]

If you choose to fly with "cheaters" that's your choice.

...which, OTOH, doesn't alter the fact of the overall online gaming situation having changed fundamentally w/ the crack anyway, cheaters abounding or not, because the psychological consequences of it are still there regardless of what may - or may not - really happen. Surely you understand this, Lexx?

[Feuerfalke]

Originally Posted by msalama

...which, OTOH, doesn't alter the fact of the overall online gaming situation having changed fundamentally w/ the crack anyway, cheaters abounding or not, because the psychological consequences of it are still there regardless of what may - or may not - really happen. Surely you understand this, Lexx?

+1

Very good posts, msalama.


As I posted before: Who cares if you "add content" to your offline game? But the pure fact that this modding is possible caused a lot of players to quit online playing (as it was allready posted on UBIZoo and here) and accusations of cheating and the overall attitude towards other players has changed dramatically since this crack was released and I have no doubt that it will sooner or later lead to the same effect we have in LOMAC: Only the hardcore fans still play online or people who don't care, whereas the later usually use mods themselves, to my experience.

[msalama]

Thank you Falke!

But all of a sudden it now seems that the Empire is indeed striking back after all See this thread over at SimHQ:

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthread...gonew=1#UNREAD

[LEXX]

mslama::

You can't really compare SH3 and IL-2. The first one is primarily an offline game,...

IL-2/FB is primarily an Offline game in number of customer sales and financing of Oleg's business. Granted, Oleg's personal focus and hobby was primarily Online Dogfight fps shooter gaming which alone does not pay the bills without Pay-To-Play.

If you use mods online you get branded as a cheater, and if you use them offline you still have to suffer the godawful AI and other assorted limits of an ancient game engine....

The benefit of Online play is human vs human gameplay. When played Online, the sim becomes real life social interaction. We only get branded as a cheater if we play with anti-social and hostile behaving players, for example some members of ubi.com who frequent the anonymous public servers. The true Online play community is modding up their FB/PF in private servers as we poast.

[csThor]

Get off your high horse now and don't give me that cr@p about the "true online community", Lexx!

This elitist BS is one of the main reasons why I bother with posting my anti-modding opinion. I have a very low tolerance for arrogance and the snide attitude I see at AAA is IMO the primary reason why you guys are taking so much flak. You guys were a lot easier to get along with (read: easier to ignore) if you weren't behaving like some self-proclaimed cult leaders who claimed to have the holy grail in their hands.

[Feuerfalke]

The glorious days of hacker-groups, that managed to post their label in protected games and spreading them on schoolyards is long gone.

What you call "true Online play community" on anonymous servers, is neither the "true" community, whatever that should be, and it is most surely not anonymous; they're numerous, if at all.

But that's what we're talking about:
This is not about a group of fans flying purely offline campaigns in a Tigermoth, with visible explosions and smoketrails for well above 10km or billboards to make Icons visible over larger distances. I doubt anybody would even care. It's about those who use these mods to fly on "non-elitist" servers and you cannot say who is using what modifications.