4.11 - AI debugging

[UWBurn]

For the next patch would be nice to see some improvement in the AI behavior related to escorts and multi-flight formations. Currently, when you place a bomber flight, and an0ther bomber flight is placed to form up on the first one (assigning the lead flight as a target on the various waypoints) everything is fine. If a fighter flight is to form up on a bomber flight they start a sweep escort over them, this might be ok, but not always convenient (i.e. long escorts over large bomber formations didn't sweeped, often just flew beside). The same applies to fighter tasked to form up on another fighter flight: the start to sweep over the leading flight. To avoid this one have to manually place the waypoints, accuratley timing them so that the various flights loosely fly togheter.
Having a more advanced waypoint option (something like the patrol and take off ones added in 4.11), allowing to specify how to form up on the targeted flight would be really welcome for me, allowing to build more complex large formations without spending A LOT of time testing he missions to ensure the AI fly together and don't collide each other.

[Treetop64]

I mistakenly put this in the General Debugging thread. Sorry!

"I've been very well impressed by the improvements in v4.11, and have been enjoying the results of TD hard work. The changes in AI behavior in particular are a real gem. However, after many hours or flying in the sim since the new patch I've come to accept that there is one aspect of AI behavior that seems to have taken a major step backwards; their formation flying.

First, pre 4.11, when flying bombers or ground attack aircraft, with a little bit of practice a human player could maintain a good position within the formation, no matter what he may be flying and where in the formation he was flying, because the AI itself did a good job keeping formation. There was only a little bit of wobble, and the consistency of holding attitude and altitude of the formation was pretty much solid.

Now in 4.11, the AI is all over the place. Formations constantly rise and fall by many tens of meters, like roller coaster rides, all the way to and from the target area. Individual aircraft within the formation constantly make drastic changes in acceleration and deceleration. The lead aircraft will turn over on his back every two minutes or so, again all the way to and from the target area, resulting in even more of the formation's rising and falling.

I understand the point of making the AI turn over like that, but it occurs far too frequently. It looks and feels cheap. Pilots in the real war may have done it, but maybe only a few times while strategically maneuvering for position during an actual combat situation, and perhaps only rarely - if ever - while transiting in formation - especially if it were a formation of bombers or ground attack aircraft.

TD, believe it or not, there are many of us who enjoyed formation flying. There is a sense of progression when you start a campaign as the junior pilot, and move your way up the ranks (and formation) as you complete missions and gain experience, eventually leading a wing, and the squadron itself. However, with the way the AI flies formations now, it is virtually impossible for the player to do that anymore as it has become prohibitively difficult keeping up with the AI as it performs all it's gyrations.

Like many, I've been a huge fan of your work and since TD's involvement have witnessed each successive version of IL-2 go from strength to strength. Unfortunately, this AI formation issue, IMO, is a blot on the copybook. I ernestly hope that others agree with me on this and that this issue gets resolved.

Thanks!"

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

I mistakenly put this in the General Debugging thread. Sorry!

"I've been very well impressed by the improvements in v4.11, and have been enjoying the results of TD hard work. The changes in AI behavior in particular are a real gem. However, after many hours or flying in the sim since the new patch I've come to accept that there is one aspect of AI behavior that seems to have taken a major step backwards; their formation flying.

First, pre 4.11, when flying bombers or ground attack aircraft, with a little bit of practice a human player could maintain a good position within the formation, no matter what he may be flying and where in the formation he was flying, because the AI itself did a good job keeping formation. There was only a little bit of wobble, and the consistency of holding attitude and altitude of the formation was pretty much solid.

Now in 4.11, the AI is all over the place. Formations constantly rise and fall by many tens of meters, like roller coaster rides, all the way to and from the target area. Individual aircraft within the formation constantly make drastic changes in acceleration and deceleration. The lead aircraft will turn over on his back every two minutes or so, again all the way to and from the target area, resulting in even more of the formation's rising and falling.

I understand the point of making the AI turn over like that, but it occurs far too frequently. It looks and feels cheap. Pilots in the real war may have done it, but maybe only a few times while strategically maneuvering for position during an actual combat situation, and perhaps only rarely - if ever - while transiting in formation - especially if it were a formation of bombers or ground attack aircraft.

TD, believe it or not, there are many of us who enjoyed formation flying. There is a sense of progression when you start a campaign as the junior pilot, and move your way up the ranks (and formation) as you complete missions and gain experience, eventually leading a wing, and the squadron itself. However, with the way the AI flies formations now, it is virtually impossible for the player to do that anymore as it has become prohibitively difficult keeping up with the AI as it performs all it's gyrations.

Like many, I've been a huge fan of your work and since TD's involvement have witnessed each successive version of IL-2 go from strength to strength. Unfortunately, this AI formation issue, IMO, is a blot on the copybook. I ernestly hope that others agree with me on this and that this issue gets resolved.

Thanks!"

I tend to agree with this observation. Also, I was wondering why bombers with rear and turret gunners need to be pulling maneuvers to 'check their 6'? Aren't the gunners spotting for enemy planes?

I've even seen bomber flights miss a waypoint pulling these maneuvers. Then they have to circle around so they can 'complete' the missed waypoint. Then they fall way behind the pack.

I know DT put a lot of time and effort into this new feature and some further tweaking may still be needed.

Aviar

[[URU]BlackFox]

I read in a book from Martin Caidin that it was the last plane in a formation the one to keep an eye on the 6 o'clock section. Of course I have no clue if the AI in the game "talk" to each other, so this is just pure speculation.

Having only the last plane in each flight do the "check manouvers" could solve the issue, while still keeping the new AI "blind spots" active.

But then again, I don't know if the code would allow for any of this, just trying to help.

[CzechTexan]

I suppose this is not a bug and is probably in the wrong forum but it is "A/I" so here is my post.

Sorry if this has been covered but i have not read all 12 pages...
I'm trying to get fighters like F4F-4 and P-400 to strafe ground targets and Japanese landing craft. They will not do it. I've tried everything I can think of.

If you add bombs to the Wildcat it will attempt to bomb and the same with P-39D-1 (my substitute for P-400 for ground attacks).
Lots of strafing were done with these on Guadalcanal and I'm just trying to make a good re-enactment of it but it's just not working.
Any suggestions or maybe a fix in the future?

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

I suppose this is not a bug and is probably in the wrong forum but it is "A/I" so here is my post.

Sorry if this has been covered but i have not read all 12 pages...
I'm trying to get fighters like F4F-4 and P-400 to strafe ground targets and Japanese landing craft. They will not do it. I've tried everything I can think of.

If you add bombs to the Wildcat it will attempt to bomb and the same with P-39D-1 (my substitute for P-400 for ground attacks).
Lots of strafing were done with these on Guadalcanal and I'm just trying to make a good re-enactment of it but it's just not working.
Any suggestions or maybe a fix in the future?

The AI will not attack ships with guns only. As Oleg used to say...this is a 'feature', not a bug.

Aviar

[FC99]

Originally Posted by [URU]BlackFox

I read in a book from Martin Caidin that it was the last plane in a formation the one to keep an eye on the 6 o'clock section. Of course I have no clue if the AI in the game "talk" to each other, so this is just pure speculation.

Having only the last plane in each flight do the "check manouvers" could solve the issue, while still keeping the new AI "blind spots" active.

But then again, I don't know if the code would allow for any of this, just trying to help.

Lot of different techniques were used in RL, we are currently examining our options and we will make some changes to make AI capable to check their six and at the same time to keep their formation.

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

Sorry if this has been covered but i have not read all 12 pages...
I'm trying to get fighters like F4F-4 and P-400 to strafe ground targets and Japanese landing craft. They will not do it. I've tried everything I can think of.

I'll take a look at it, can't promise anything for 4.11.1 , if we make changes they will be in 4.12 at earliest.

[CzechTexan]

Originally Posted by FC99

I'll take a look at it, can't promise anything for 4.11.1 , if we make changes they will be in 4.12 at earliest.

Great! I guess it has been a "feature" and I just never noticed it because i mainly used the Sturmovik for ground attacks and not other fighters.
I do think fighters need to be fixed for strafing to make it more realistic though. Thanks for the reply!

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

I suppose this is not a bug and is probably in the wrong forum but it is "A/I" so here is my post.

Sorry if this has been covered but i have not read all 12 pages...
I'm trying to get fighters like F4F-4 and P-400 to strafe ground targets and Japanese landing craft. They will not do it. I've tried everything I can think of.

If you add bombs to the Wildcat it will attempt to bomb and the same with P-39D-1 (my substitute for P-400 for ground attacks).
Lots of strafing were done with these on Guadalcanal and I'm just trying to make a good re-enactment of it but it's just not working.
Any suggestions or maybe a fix in the future?

Try using the P39D2 armed with the 37mm.

[Lonestar]

Hi,
I do not know whether someone has this already observed, but the F4U1A AI behaves during a bombing run from a certain height very strange!
At a height above 1250m, the F4U1A extend his undercarriage and goes into a dive! The bombs will triggered and the undercarriage again retracted!

Saw it in 4.11m plus hotfix patch during a DCG mission and a test mission in FMB!
Payload F4U1A: 2x500

picture: EDIT

Hope it helps!