4.11 overheat and engine damage test results

[T}{OR]

Posting equations to prove your point? I guess you see something new every day.

These personal assaults you mention stared from you, no one else WD. Had you started your discussion as an academic you claim to be - people would definitely listen. This way you and only you are responsible for this thread deviating from the original subject / problem and people insulting you back.

Right now when someone looks at your posts sees a 5 year old kid looking for attention. Calling out for "duels" and honor"?! Saying that you a better pilot than any of us here? Why is this even important to the discussion? How can a sane person not question your credibility? Please tell me...

(quite hilarious I am afraid)

[DD_crash]

I was going to put WD on my ignore list but he is very entertaining (in a silly sort of way.)

[WhistlinggDeath]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

Posting equations to prove your point? I guess you see something new every day.

These personal assaults you mention stared from you, no one else WD. Had you started your discussion as an academic you claim to be - people would definitely listen. This way you and only you are responsible for this thread deviating from the original subject / problem and people insulting you back.

Right now when someone looks at your posts sees a 5 year old kid looking for attention. Calling out for "duels" and honor"?! Saying that you a better pilot than any of us here? Why is this even important to the discussion? How can a sane person not question your credibility? Please tell me...

(quite hilarious I am afraid)

Not a cool way to start the new day. Since it is early here WCT, I will overlook the remarks. You got data Thor (like Papa or Jumo are trying to present), post it. If not, kindly keep it to yourself.

Red - Answer A is right. B is incorrect for all three. F=ma is an ODE (ordinary differential equation). a=x'' simply indicates that acceleration is the second derivative of position, and is not the type of equation F=ma represents. It has order two (not Newton 2), and is a second order ODE with linear outcome. Its simple solution (assume non-harmonic) is the integration of the force/mass with relation to position X plus a constant. The chain rule is used. Mass is not 'mostly' assumed. It remains constant unless you indicate a variable mass problem (which we didnt).

[WhistlinggDeath]

Jumo and Papa - Quite busy since I have to host a visiting PI around La Jolla today. Beyond the limited scope at hand, I will kindly ask you this; Whose interpretation is the 'right one' ?

Whenever I pop into these type of forums, I am always greeted by the aviation book nuts. And they will pull up all types of esoteric diagrams and plots trying to argue that their view is the only and 'right' view, about how fast an airframe could fly, or how long, its boost could last, etc... Unlike engineering though (my profession), where the scientific method holds sway, there is no exact repeatable test (in 99.9999% of cases) since we dont have the unrestored warbird to give us the exact answer. In engineering we dont base our answers on what some shear test gave in 1944 gave for a certain sheet of metal, or hold that to be the one true answer. More deeply though, how certain are you that you have the definitive source when German aviation manual A says X and German aviation manual B says Y.

I am no aviation historian but I am always struck by the various accounts which often mutually disagree. One of the most interesting things (at least to me) in speaking with Capt. Holcomb on the phone, was when he indicated that the manuals they were required to know, should sometimes be disregarded, and that is something he learned later only as he got to his operational squadron. Further, I am not qualified to judge (to be honest, as I mentioned before, no developer for IL2 was a real WWII warbird pilot) who has the definitive 'right' flight model for a specific airframe. After looking at your (Papa's and Jumo's) data, I see strong points of overall historical accuracy, but also small differences. And this for me, is the wiggle room we appear to disagree over. While in broad strokes, I support new overheat models for IL2 (anything which adds realism to all the UFO planes, which for the past years I have had to duel is welcome), I do feel it is difficult to apply one or two simple algorithms to dozens of flyable airframes, and I still cannot find any evidence that planes on boost went into overheat in one combat climb.

So, to you Papa and Jumo, can you find direct evidence supporting the reduced flight model of the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 ?

When I do the quick flights on the Crimea map with auto pitch, I get:

Ta 152 H1 in 4.10.1

Top speed at sea level on full WEP at 110% = 570 kph

Ta 152 H1 in 4.11

Top speed " " " = 530 (and you cannot maintain that for long due to the overheat model)

You have resources (or know of) a great many aviation manuals (or so it would seem). Does the historical documentation support 4.11 or 4.10.1 ?

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

When I do the quick flights on the Crimea map with auto pitch, I get:

Ta 152 H1 in 4.10.1

Top speed at sea level on full WEP at 110% = 570 kph

Ta 152 H1 in 4.11

Top speed " " " = 530 (and you cannot maintain that for long due to the overheat model)

You have resources (or know of) a great many aviation manuals (or so it would seem). Does the historical documentation support 4.11 or 4.10.1 ?

Now this is a base for discussion. You might want to add a couple of tracks while you are at it.

[shauncm]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

So, to you Papa and Jumo, can you find direct evidence supporting the reduced flight model of the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 ?

When I do the quick flights on the Crimea map with auto pitch, I get:

Ta 152 H1 in 4.10.1

Top speed at sea level on full WEP at 110% = 570 kph

Ta 152 H1 in 4.11

Top speed " " " = 530 (and you cannot maintain that for long due to the overheat model)

i did say earlier that all planes are a bit slower now. the 570kph (which was more or less what i could get out of the tempest in 4.10.1 has now dropped to 530 (ish)

spitfire 25 has dropped by about the same amount.

the LA7 doesnt seem to have been so heavily effected.

basicly i think we were all flying at peak speed before and we could abuse it because of the lack of accurate thermal moddeling. now max sustained speed is a lot slower than peak speed. i can still manage 570 for a short time, but i will overheat and have to back off again.

on the upside ive allready won a battle or two with the spit by blowing up his engine as he tried to chase me

[WhistlinggDeath]

The La7 and 185s are not that affected Shawn. And, that is my point about unfairly applied overheat algorithms. If the clown wagons keep going while I must continually break off with my P51 to drop pitch, rpms and throttle, is there evidence to support the super Russian planes in this aspect? So my simple question to the aviation history folks is:

Do the historical manuals support 4.10.1 or 4.11 ? And if so, please show us the goods.

Edit - I did see a reference a few days back that the TA 152 could indeed reach 570/580 kph at sea level but forgot to flag it. Anyone finds any documentation,one way or the other, post it.

[WhistlinggDeath]

The TA example above is also why balance is so important if the actual historical record is sketchy. Here is an example:

4.10.1 - I come up from making a boom pass on some guy and see a 185 M-71 approaching at my 10 o'clock with me in my Ta 152-H1. I put in a little coordinated turn, take an angled shot, and lets say I miss. So I continue flying past and move out of theater at about 570 kph. The 185 after he passes me, pulls to a quick hammerhead and reverses 180 degress to give chase, but he is already 1.8 km back by that time and though he can reach 580 kph level flight speed, I can reach ~ 570 or 575, it will be many minutes before he can catch me, and by that time , even in 4.10.1 he is in serious overheat, or I have made it back under my side's friendlies above, and he must break off or be shot down.

4.11 - Now the 185 M-71 can give chase, and do so at 570 kph for quite a bit before he reaches overheat. I continue to stay straight and run from him, but my speed gradually deteriorates to ~ 530 kph (to push any harder and my engine blows) and he catches me before I reach friendly lines or before his engine goes. I have no option, I must cool my engine, and I can do nothing to increase the separation distance faster than about 530 kph. I will be caught.

That is a game changer. It is a patch which hits BnZ planes hard (like the FW, the P51, the TA and Tempy) but leaves little restriction on the La7, 185s and to a lesser extent the Spits. Sure, I know... I know. Someone will say, come in 2000m even higher, or make sure you leave 2000m to dive away from, etc.... And usually I do, but that is why the overheat model must be corrected IMHO. Many will berate me for being of low IQ, ... a poor pilot, etc... but when you look past the venom, ... in actuality, I am a full real guy who prefers the P51 and TA above the other planes. Unless someone can produce authentic historical information indicating these large overheating effects for the TA and P51, but not for the La7 and 185, I have no option but to assume the overheat model is applied incorrectly. ... And should therefore be fixed.

Aviation history guys, ... is there any evidence out there to support the special overheat resistant abilities of the La7 and 185 that we have in 4.11 ? Or that show the quick overheat effects to the TA and P51 ?

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

Do the historical manuals support 4.10.1 or 4.11 ? And if so, please show us the goods.

So it is okay for you to take 4.11 to court without any of the things you demand?
You are the one in the community who is having the big problem fighting "clown wagons" on yours and other clown wagon servers and you started crying about it immediately after you saw you could not the way you were used to in the older patch with the throttle nailed.

If you have a problem with the official version of the sim, then get something to back up your allegations, YOU come up with data and manuals.

And if you can not figure out how to fly the IL2 flight sim in the wake of others who always have and are now then maybe you should take your name off that ridiculous self-aggrandizing "masters" list you are always bringing up?

[WhistlinggDeath]

I am no aviation historian, so I am asking you (or others) who appear to have done alot of reading, to verify for me if this proof exists or not. In what little I have read, I can see no firm evidence for the severe overheat model applied in 4.11.

To be honest, I am not having trouble. In 4.11, when I fight the clown wagons, I stay about 1000m higher in any BnZ attack than I did in 4.10.1 and I dive away if an La7 or 185 gets above me. With correct pitch, and just as Shaun noted, I usually get them to burn up their engine before I run into real trouble. I just dont agree with the overheat model.

Please for the love of God, drop the Masters List Jumo. That was two years back. Its been dead (thank the good lord) for a long time. Lets leave it dead. Your simply pissed because the Advisory Board evaluated you and none of the seven voted for you to ascend. Drop it.... for all our sakes. It is the real reason you are still pissed at me after all this time.