First fight in a 109

[JG5_emil]

Would you like red sauce with that giant chip on your shoulders? If you just want fun T&B on the deck there is nothing wrong with that, each to his own, but it's not the best way to use the aircraft and it gives you a very low survivability rate. You can help someone who is low and in trouble without getting yourself in a mess as well.

I wouldn't fly wingman for someone who ended up on the deck every flight and forced me to get myself killed for their mistakes. We fly as a team and share our kills but try our best to survive the mission.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

Would you like red sauce with that giant chip on your shoulders? If you just want fun T&B on the deck there is nothing wrong with that, each to his own, but it's not the best way to use the aircraft and it gives you a very low survivability rate. You can help someone who is low and in trouble without getting yourself in a mess as well.

I wouldn't fly wingman for someone who ended up on the deck every flight and forced me to get myself killed for their mistakes. We fly as a team and share our kills but try our best to survive the mission.

You see, my "chip on the shoulder" stems from the fact that you make me out to be some T&B dude just to prove your point, which I am most certainly not. I am actually agreeing to your stances on most accounts, but you simply don't appear to understand that there are those situations within constantly and dynamically shifting combat conditions were you are finding yourself in a problematic situation, no matter how much you stick "to the book". And in the course of that you are activly torpedoing any debate on how to successfully get out of these again. Ppl "do" make mistakes, including your wingmen. And just abandoning those just to save your skin and blame them for making mistakes is simply not a principle I go by.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

I have my flaps mapped to a lever on my saitek quad, I only ever use flaps for landing though. Speed is life in a 109.

Same here, only I'm using CH controls

[JG5_emil]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by JG5_emil

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

Your comment is not wrong per se. But we have to agree to disagree that there is this kind of 100 percent control of the battlefield. Especially if you fly with people outside your own squad and thus the lack of propper drill.

Besides, I think you are vastly underestimating the capabilities of the 109 in these kind of situations and that dismissing them outright on the basis of pure principle is like cutting off your left hand to prove that your right hand is better at bashing the opponent.

[Blackdog_kt]

In other words:

Emil: "This is how to optimally use the 109"

Bewolf: "I agree. Let's also see what happens in a situation that arises from non-optimal use"

No need to get in a fight guys

This is the main distinction of combat styles, especially when flying aircraft that need some discipline, and it matches my personal experience.

I was never much of an onliner, but in the previous IL2 series i would take a 190A up in warclouds or spits vs 109s once in a while and that's exactly what i learned:

a) Flying carefully tends to not get you killed often, because you avoid sticky situations and

b) Avoiding sticky situations at all costs deprives you of the practice you need to turn the tables if you find yourself in one

Overall: You get killed less on the whole, but should you get in a tight spot you will most likely be shot down because you don't know how to act.

And since we have a venue with limited penalties for getting the required practice, i think it's a good idea every now and again to hop onto a DF server and "fly stupid" on purpose to get in a bad spot, only in order to practice how to get out of it

I mean, there are cases where you have no choice at all than to get in a bad spot, depending on your priorities of course.

I was always the guy that flew carefully and BnZed with the 190 and that's what i try to do with the 109 now in CoD. Well, as soon as i would get co-E Spit IX or P-47/P-51 on my tail i didn't know what to do and you will get them from time to time no matter how careful you are, because you can't watch 100% of the sky 100% successfully 100% of the time. And then, i lacked the practice and all i could do was run and drag them for a wingman to come and scrape them off my tail (if they were Spits) or just defend one BnZ pass after another and pray i survive (if they were the faster USAF birds).

Things are a bit better with the 109 in CoD because it has a lot of acceleration over the RAF birds, especially if you know how to work the pitch, so i'm not having so much of a hard time.

Just today i hopped onto ATAG for a couple of sorties and i was patrolling over Ramsgate/Manston, waiting for some 110s to come and bomb a mission target. Most of the time i have a hard time picking up lower contacts, so i descended from 6 to 2km and i still couldn't see where the 110s who needed help were.

At some point a few 110s managed to disengage and run for home while a couple more were inbound. Right then i got a radar contact report about a lone Hurri, i managed to creep up behind him and kill him and then the real fun began.

I started criss-crossing over the two airfields to keep the defenders busy and drag them away from the 110s. Well, colour me massively surprised, because i survived a prolonged encounter with 4 enemy aircraft (i think mostly Spits, maybe a single Hurri too), that lasted 5-10 minutes for sure (i was watching my fuel gauge and it was quite depleted during the course of all this).

I was anywhere between the deck and 2km of altitude, extending in a dive to get separation, getting altitude in a very slight climb at 400km/h while dragging 3-4 bandits at a time, then turning around in a sequence of mild high and low yo-yos to conserve energy and trying to get a snapshot on one of them. Then i would keep at it with a couple of yo-yos or roll reversals to cut corners by pointing my lift vector inside their turn, sometimes even with a flat turn if was feeling lucky, but i would always disengage and extend if i couldn't bring the sights on him within a couple of turns.

Cross them almost head on, turn the other way, put the nose down, engage WEP, fake some turns (roll one way and turn the other, thanks to the negative G capability of the engine, then roll level and get out) and by that time i was well out of their convergence. They were spraying a bit but i didn't get hit too much in all of this and didn't get anything important damaged, plus i scored some hits on one of them i think.

The bottom line is that i acted stupid on purpose to effect a tactical advantage to my team, i got in a tight spot, but i also learned how to manage it and come out alive. I didn't score any kills in that encounter, although i could have: it was a choice between saddling up for a few seconds more to get a clean shot and getting hit in return by their wingmen, or simply making high deflection passes, keeping up my speed and keeping them busy.

In short, get in a tight spot by acting silly on purpose, but then try to fly smart and learn how to get out of it. It was good fun and taught me a lot about how to manage such encounters in the 109. I think that with sufficient discipline and the added endurance you get when flying on a free sweep (a full tank gets me about an hour of flying or more, especially if i loiter at 5-6km on 1Ata and 2200RPM while waiting for team mates to ask for help on TS), it's actually quite feasible to use it as a solo hunter.

[Bewolf]

Nothing to add there, Blackdog, nicely put =)

[Tiger27]

Even the best pilots made mistakes or had situations that meant they couldn't fly at their optimum, even if it was just an order from Goering to fly in close to the bombers , for this reason, although BnZ is the way to go in nearly all situations with a 109, it doesn't hurt to practise and prepare for those odd times when it all goes wrong, that is where the dogfight servers have a purpose, they are great for practising what to do when the sh1te hits the fan.

[Jaws2002]

If you want to take part in the actual mission, you'll have to fly a bit more dangerous to yourself and less than ideal from a fighter's tactical point of view, in order to achieve the broader strategic goals.
In the end, that's what's historical. In a real war, fighter pilots didn't fly how they liked, they flew how they were told. If they assigned your unit for close bomber escort, or protecting certain ground targets, that's what you did. If you didn't, you have a good chance to end up blindfolded with the back to a wall.

I have great respect and feel sorry for people that offer to escort my Ju-88 to the target. I know they'll most likely get shot by that swarm of Spits and Hurricanse protecting those dreaded Beaufighters on Ramsgate airfield. But if I get to blow up the target it's satisfying for all of us. Even if we all get killed.

There are many ways to get a kick out of a game. You can fly in straight lines and do only what's 100% safe, but after ten plus years of playing this series of games, to me that's boring as hell. You have to spice up your gaming experience.
Unless you try to turn from time to time with the other guys, you'll never know how good your plane turns.
I've seen this many times over the years. Many guys that fly only 100% safe, are straight up sitting ducks in a close dogfight. Usually those same guys complain a lot about their plane being "porked".
I'm a pretty bad "pilot" and can't shoot worth a damn, but even I had some success dogfighting in some of this "can't turn" fighters.
Both the FW-190 and P-47 could dogfight back in Il-2, and our Bf-109E definitely can.
It takes a bit of aggressiveness and a lot of practice, doing just that. You'll die a lot, but you'll know your plane a lot better than before. You can't expect to always be the fastest and the highest plane in the game, so you may as well train for those situations from time to time. So many times doing just that, #turning when nobody expects you to# you can surprise the other guy and get him on defensive before he even knows what happened.

There are many ways to enjoy this game. Sometimes you fly fast and safe and selfish. Sometimes you bomb targets, escort bombers and take part in the actual mission. Sometimes you just go fool around flaps down throttle to the wall on the deck with a 110.

In the end what I want to say is this. Don't try to tell others how to enjoy their game, or look down on them if they don't fly 100% safe from the fighter point of view.

[JG5_emil]

Think you guys are missing the point. The OP asked "The turning, or rather the lack of turning, will take some getting used to. What are your strategies, blue pilots? "

I'm just giving my strategies and mine are to do everything possible to maintain energy in the form of speed or altitude or both and to never (unless I have screwed up) to perform manoeuvres that scrub off my energy unless I am in a position to remain higher and or faster than my opponent. At no point am I saying this never happens to me because it does, usually because I get kill hungry or take silly risks and when it does happen I would much prefer to escape in order to fight another day. If I've ended up in a turn/scissor fight the odds are against the aircraft. A better pilot can win but then again if you are also up against a good pilot in an aircraft more suited to that kind of fight you are most likely going to lose.

Dogfight servers are good for practice and/or just having fun. I have nothing against them but I do prefer COOPs and team tactics over low altitude fights to the death. The LW knew their strengths and weaknesses and I doubt many real pilots would fly that way, many of the ones that did probably ended up at the bottom of the channel. The pilots that used the strengths of the aircraft surely survived much longer.

So in short I think getting in to a situation where you are low with co alt or have a worse energy state is a bad thing but if you enjoy doing it then that's up to you. Our emphasis in JG5 is to fly as a team using tactics that suit the aircraft and we don't like flying with people that are reckless chasing an enemy to the deck which then puts the entire rotte at risk. They deplete the numbers of effective aircraft we wield and in our experience then expect us to come down and bail them out of their predicament...that isn't working as a team. Most of this experience comes from flying IL2 as we're still awaiting CLOD to get fixed but our principles would remain the same, we respect the team player who doesn't feel the need to chase a damaged enemy aircraft to the deck for their own glory and who then puts the rest of us at risk.