10 year Joystick Saga

[Maico]

My fellow Pilots:
I have now been playing IL2 for 10 years. Can you beleive it? I have tried just about every joystick out there that was relevant to our hobby. I have owned a Logitech Attack, X-45, X-52, MSFFB2(x4), Saitek Cyborg, Logitech Extreme, CH Fighter Stick, Logitech G940, X52 Pro and finally the Thrustmaster Warthog. To me, the best joystick in the world is the Microsoft Force Feedback 2 USB. The late one made with a single light on the base and USB. There is a certain intangible quality about the way this hardware lets you enjoy IL2. Let me begin with the way it fits in your hands. It is ergonomically perfect. The buttons are very well placed and there is quite a lot of them. The software was made in a way that 5 year olds could figure it out. Best of all, the stick was durable, rubust and reliable. It was the King of flight sims.
The late King of feel was put to rest when the creator (Microsoft) decided they would no longer update the software. No software update was issued for Win7. The Microsoft people should have been lined up and had thier toenails pulled until someone confessed who's Idea it was to discontinue support to this magical piece of software. However justice seldom gets done right in America. Instead, I quietly put mine in a box and like others out there went looking for the next best thing.
I had nothing against Logitech. My first stick was an Attack and I never did wear it out. I gave it away. 30 dollars spent and a whole lot of fun. Like your first motorcycle, it did not matter what it was, you would fall of, and drive it like a dweeb. Finnally I upgraded.
The first day with your first Saitek Hotas is one of most satisfying days of your life. The look, the feel.... Ahhhh the performance. Then the challenge of figuring out the software. It has more bells an whistles than a Luxury Choo Choo. The dual command where I could press to gunsight view and release for wide view was indispensable. For all intents and purposes the Saitek works. And if it does break (I had two buttons go out in about 8 years) You can allways spring for a new one or replace the button. They are also plentifull in the flea markets(See Ebay). But since I am A.D.D(Attention Deficit Disorder) I started looking for the next best thing. How could I improve my flying.
I found it in the MSFFB2. It really is all that, The Dogs Bullocks, The King. The way it fits, the way it flies and the feedback that it gives is hard to believe. Compared to the Saitek stick it was much more comfy and the buttons easier to reach. But I missed all the buttons of the X-45. It did not take me long to figure out that I could run them together. It just took a little more time to figure out that adding Ctrl to the throttle and Shift to the joystick effectively trippled the number of available commands. I never liked the Modes switch. That settled me in for a few years. When MS decided to stop building the stick I bought three more. That is what I think of it. Then one day I realized that the only way I was going to move on with simming and move up to the big leages of computer systems was to go to Win7. I gave in to the memmory limitations of WinXp fully knowing that my beloved stick was not supported.
So when Logitech Came out with the G940 I gave it a go. They had done me well with the Attack and I had bought an Extreeme on vacation(yes, I am a sad man ) Both these had served me well. But the quality issues started to bite me nearly right away. I was dissapointed by the way the force feedback felt. I kept messing about with the software but never got it to feel right. It was never a MSFFB. Then it was the way the rotaries on the throttle let me down that made me throw in the towel. Without them I felt the stick was a waste of good plastic. The rotaries are so bad in fact that I stopped programing stuff to them. All I can say about this one is It has Issues. It is the Hot Chick at the party who dont put out. And when she does, you wish she hadn't. It is a missed oportunity for Logitech to have climbed to the top of the JSP (Joystick Providers) head and scream at the top of thier lungs "Meet the new King". But I am sure they made a lot of cash in the process so.... who cares, right.
So I decided to go back to old reliable. I bought an X-52 Pro. I had been lusting after one for a long time. I did the shim mod and felt that finnally I was flying again. It is reliable, felt good and it had that familiar software. There are No faults that I could find with this stick. But A.D.D struck again...
I recently received my Warthog. I can't really give a good opinion since I have only had it a week or so. The software is REALLY NICE. The Stick conjures up feelings I have not had since I received my first X-45. You really do have a ball just setting it up, looking at it and touching it. I even use special nomex chopper pilot gloves with the finger tips cut out. We already established I am sad and plus, It is coooold in my sim room. Other notes are the heft of the stick. This is one heavy mutha'. You really are swinging a 2kg weight around. The X-52 felt like one fourth the effort. I dont know if I will get used to it... You do get a lot of stability. Great for bombers and Jets but in a df with biplanes.... I dont know. Give me more time... It is a beauty and when it put out, you walk away grinning. But can we be long term?
I now find out there are programs out there that allow you to program the MSFFB2. I tried Joy2Key and was disapointed. It simply did not work. Today I will give Autohotkey a try. I may play some ROF on my second PC if it works.
Will the Warthog be my next best thing? I dont know and I certainly could medicate this ADD, but then life would just stop being fun.


Very exciting days! Stay tuned...

Maico

UPDATE! Captain Log, Jan 31st fourteen hundred hours...

I want to start out by saying that I fully beleive that the X52 and especially the X52 Pro are the best available sticks at the moment. The MSFFB2 is still unbeatable but not available in stock form. So if I was on the market for a stick... That is what I recomend my buddies.
Now about the Warthog. Last night we were out for a spin. I suddenly lost my F1 key. The another button would not work.. then another... Uhmmmm... I lost my Mojo so I jumped out of the game only to find the Coolie on the throttle was stuck. I could hear a constant ding! ding! ding! in windows. I pushed it and it stoped. Several minutes later it did it again. I looked at the stick and said "Really, We only been together for TWO WEEKS!" It looks as thou while the button was stuck, none of the other button would work. This rendered me useless in the air. I hope this was a fluke and part of the break in process. If its not, I will send it back quicker than you can say "Fourhundreddollars". Just kidding, If it is, I will get a switch and fix it myself. Hope it dont come to that. The rest of the night the stick behaved and I got one particular kill that can only atributed to cement like steadiness of the Warthog.
I do feel some of the switches feel flimsy as thou they will just quit. This is an aweful thing on what is otherwise a wonderful stick. The only other complaint is that the heft of the stick is quite a workout. But I am getting used to it. The reward is unpararelled stability. The software is outstanding. I like it better than Saitek and I REALLY like Saitek's software.
So there you have it. Straight out the horses mouth. This is my experience so far. I love (really) this hotas. There are some things I would do differently if I had made it. However overall, I give it a good score. But lets see what is next.
Stay tuned folks. And as allways.

Have a great day.


Maico

"Its not how many planes you shoot down, its how many times you make it home that count"


Update # 2. 07 Feb 2012 Loss of a button to Mechanical failure.

Here is the bottom line. Get yourself a X-52 Pro and either use the whole thing(Do the Joystick Shim Mod, very cool) or use the Cyborg with the X-52 throttle. Either way, you will really come out winning.
The Warthog is the Super Hot High maintenance Chick everyone wants to be seen with.
The X-52 Pro is more like the Cute smart girl. Its there, its reliable, its easy to maitain (or replace). Unlike the Warthog, you dont go,
"Wow, I spent all this money on you for this?"
I have not experienced this stinchon problem but I would not be surprised if its not in my future. Honestly, I dont put nothing past this stick. Yes, there are some things that can be modded. However now I am experincing extremly good precision.
As predicted, I am now used to the heavy throw of the stick. Do not take for granted that this will take some time.
Problem Number 2. The MSP or Mic Push button is really hard to push in. To the point where I dont program stuff to it. You could call it a dead button. This is a mechanical failure. When I got it this button seemed a bit stiff, now it just seems about to break.
The sticking Coolie buttons pesist. Sometimes I have to move this switch around to keep it from sticking. This switch will have to be replaced. It works but sometimes it just sticks. Not good.
The pinkie switch also seems a bit loose. Maybe I can fix this myself. Althou bottom line is, I should not have to.

That is all for now. Have a great day.



Maico

[ATAG_Snapper]

Wow, Maico, that's quite a saga! And a good read.

I second your thoughts on the MSFFB2. It by far has the best feel of any stick I've owned. I found myself needing more programable controls, unfortunately, than what the MSFFB2 could offer.

The Warthog HOTAS certainly offers that in spades, coupled with its TARGET software. It's a very powerful stick & throttle combination, and solid in the extreme. Unfortunately it lacks force feedback, which I sorely miss. It's also very clunky around its centering detent. Elsewhere in this forum a Youtube link was posted that shows a step by step procedure in removing the huge mainspring of the Warthog's joystick and relocating the smaller secondary coil springs to maintain a softer stick tension. It seemed very straightforward and is reversable if the results are not satisfactory (ie stick tensioning is now too loose and/or sloppy). This video also mentioned that washers could be used as shims with the smaller coil springs to firm the stick up a bit if needed. This is something I plan to try.

One other stick that I got through Amazon is incredible value at $36: Thrustmaster's TM16000. It's very solid, lots of buttons on stick and base, uses contactless Halls sensors, has twist-grip rudder axis, a throttle lever, and can use the same TARGET software as the Warthog HOTAS. I found its action to be very smooth and keep it as a spare.

The other control peripheral I've found very useful for CoD is the CH Quadrant. CoD has no shortage of axis available with its Complex Engine Management. Trims, mixture, radiators, even flaps and undercarriage -- all looked after. Trim especially is very smooth to adjust -- which one does CONSTANTLY it seems.

Others report excellent use of CH joysticks and throttles. My experience with them was very good initially, but the pots got "spiky" eventually, as did the pots in my expensive Thrustmaster Cougar joystick AND throttle. For the price and trouble of purchasing online and then installing a Halls sensor kit for the Cougar, it was far more advantageous to simply buy the Warthog -- which HAVE Halls sensors, as does the MSFFB2 and, as already noted, the TM16000.

There's my joystick story!

[bw_wolverine]

Is the problem with connecting the MS FFB2 to Win7 that you want it to run macros for the buttons?

With the two quadrants I have now and the FFB2, I never really bothered with programming my stick before.

I do miss the utility that allowed you to tweak the FFB levels, though.

I remember the 'alien ray gun' test force. Neneenneneneneneneneoeoowowowowowowowow.

[Sokol1]

Since your have all these sticks, why not combine MSFF2 + Saitek X-52 throttle?

I tried Joy2Key and was disapointed. It simply did not work.

I dont see why abandon MSFF2 only because the software that "make joy buttons presss keys" dont work in last OS. Map buttons direct in game GUI. Or use third part alternative soft.

Joy2key work very well - the last version has ability to distinguish between press and hold buttons - what goes wrong?

Alternatively try Xpader (www.xpader.com).

Sokol1

[KG26_Alpha]

Have a shuftie through this thread


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18562

[Helrza]

14 years ago i bought a logitech wingman interceptor....... Im still using it today in clod.... Damn she's takin a loooot of punishment, and still handles as great as the day i bought it when my new build is finished i have no choice but to upgrade, im not too sure if im lookin forward to it rofl

[whoarmongar]

The TM 16000 does seem incredibly good value, does anyone have any feedback on it ?
I find it hard to justify spending so much for a warthog, and all the other Halls sensor joysticks are about the same price as the warthog except the thrustmaster, so wheres the drawback ?

It seems to me the extra sensitivity of the halls sensor lends it perfectly to the extra precision of a floor mounted joystick/yoke, or as in the spitty/hurri, a joyoke or perhaps is it yokestick?

Having looked at some plans for a replica spitfire control column available (price £500) apart from an aluminium casting of the spade grip the rest seems rather easy to make or to source autoparts that would do the job.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

Is the problem with connecting the MS FFB2 to Win7 that you want it to run macros for the buttons?

With the two quadrants I have now and the FFB2, I never really bothered with programming my stick before.

I do miss the utility that allowed you to tweak the FFB levels, though.

I remember the 'alien ray gun' test force. Neneenneneneneneneneoeoowowowowowowowow.

Using the MSFFB2 stick in CoD is fine since the CoD Controls menu allows you to assign the Directx buttons and axis to whatever in-game functions you want. Unfortunately, the Sidewinder 4 software doesn't work with Win 7, so you aren't able to program any keyboard commands or macros to the joystick buttons. Surprisingly, the Win 7 ffb drivers work fine with the MSFFB2 stick and CoD's .ffe files. You can't edit them, but you can delete any you don't like. IIRC, the different ffb effects are a little goofy in how they're placed in the .ffe files.

For instance, if you don't like the overdone cannon effects because your stick shakes far too hard and throws off your aim, you can delete cannon.ffe -- but then you also lose stall shudder. (or something like that). Anyone feel free to correct me here.

The only problem I had with force feedback was the excessive stick shake when your plane was damaged. I swear to the Almighty the MSFFB2 would practically jump off my desk! I'm sure I'm not the only MSFFB2 stick owner who quickly learned how to fly a badly-damaged plane back to home base with just thumb and forefinger gingerly holding the stick - desperately avoiding covering the hand sensor and sending the stick back into convulsions again! LOL

[Sokol1]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

you aren't able to program any keyboard commands or macros to the joystick buttons.

I am already curious about this "joy button press keys" matter, you can cite a example of macro in joy button absolutelly neccessary in CloD?

You can't edit them, but you can delete any you don't like. IIRC, the different ffb effects are a little goofy in how they're placed in the .ffe files.

FFedit: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...62&postcount=3

Sokol1

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by Sokol1

I am already curious about this "joy button press keys" matter, you can cite a example of macro in joy button absolutelly neccessary in CloD?



FFedit: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...62&postcount=3

Sokol1

Absolutely necessary? None!

I have one or two programmed to my Warthog HOTAS, but they are far from "absolutely necessary"!