4.11 - AI debugging

[slm]

I was testing the new 4.11 release in Quick Mission Builder.
I attacked 3 enemy planes, TBD-1. I got some hits to a plane that was probably the leader of the group. Smoke was coming out of the damaged plane and it started slowly losing altitude.

the bug: its wingman kept following the damaged plane towards the ground and both AI planes crashed.

[ZaltysZ]

In fast vs slow, but good turner scenario (i.e. BF109 vs I16), fast planes try to do same stuff like in the video posted earlier, that results in damage or destruction of fast plane pretty quickly, as AI doesn't waste ammo anymore. It would be good if AI could choose to dive aggressively and extend, instead of all these half turns and rolls.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Thanks for telling your impressions. AI is not considered as final - its just a first step done now and further tweaking is planed, where necessary. Your oppinions help much to this. But please consider also more various situations than just 1vs1, so as big furballs, different plane types (energy fighter/T&B fighter) or disadvantages in numbers. Its also important, how AI work together.

As for the video above, it seems to be an ace- (read minus ... a poor skilled ace), you know, the general skill sublevels may vary randomly.

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

Thanks for telling your impressions. AI is not considered as final - its just a first step done now and further tweaking is planed, where necessary. Your oppinions help much to this. But please consider also more various situations than just 1vs1, so as big furballs, different plane types (energy fighter/T&B fighter) or disadvantages in numbers. Its also important, how AI work together.

As for the video above, it seems to be an ace- (read minus ... a poor skilled ace), you know, the general skill sublevels may vary randomly.

regarding the ACE- thats a very good implementation. its not seen in this video, but in my previous attempts at something like this, i had a f4f ( slower than the zero) and about 2 out of 3 times, the zero would just extend and play safe, clearly a ace+ choice

[Dash 8]

I like the new AI much better. It seems there is a chance that they panic and freeze at the controls. I was killing a lot of AI average level in the QMB, but some were puting up a good fight. So, I switched them to Veteran and the first one I fought froze up after the initial pass and I shredded him. He never moved from straight and level when I was on his 6. So I tried the same senario again. This time he was very difficult to bring down. Even hit me a few times too. I like the chance that they can panic and freeze up. That, and they don't see you coming in from 6 o'clock low too.

[voyager_663rd]

Originally Posted by slm

I was testing the new 4.11 release in Quick Mission Builder.
I attacked 3 enemy planes, TBD-1. I got some hits to a plane that was probably the leader of the group. Smoke was coming out of the damaged plane and it started slowly losing altitude.

the bug: its wingman kept following the damaged plane towards the ground and both AI planes crashed.

?

I did the same mission: QMB at 500 m with 3 TBD-1's and everybody was an Ace. I was in an A4.

Disabled the lead, he went in.

Other two kept on their merry way.

Took out new lead--he spun in and the last one kept going.

No bug here.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by voyager_663rd

?

I did the same mission: QMB at 500 m with 3 TBD-1's and everybody was an Ace. I was in an A4.

Disabled the lead, he went in.

Other two kept on their merry way.

Took out new lead--he spun in and the last one kept going.

No bug here.

Thanks for support but there is a sort of bug here. Problem is in the gray area when AI plane is not totally disabled but it can't fly properly either. In such cases AI leader often start to lose altitude and when it's obvious that it is not going to make it it's often too late for the flight to pull out of the dive.

Another annoying example is when you have heavy bombers at high altitude and Leader is damaged. It start to lose alt and lead whole flight down low.

We will do something about it.

[[URU]BlackFox]

I was testing the AI strafing behaviour, and it seems that it just makes one strafing run, no matter the results, and gives up strafing.

The old routine, the one that made the AI get far away from the target before coming in again was not good, and maybe this could be a good time to redo the ground attack logic.

I attached the test mission (I just ran it from the FMB). I tried a fighter (P-47), and a Sturmovik, with the same results.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by [URU]BlackFox

I was testing the AI strafing behaviour, and it seems that it just makes one strafing run, no matter the results, and gives up strafing.

The old routine, the one that made the AI get far away from the target before coming in again was not good, and maybe this could be a good time to redo the ground attack logic.

Hi, tried your mission and it works as you described. I tried some other Ground Attack missions and in them AI made multiple attacks so it seems that this is situation dependent.

I'll check some of the old manuals for RL ground attack patterns and change AI if necessary.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Now I know that the AI went into a dive to put out the fire... but we were not that high ... and I have heard of engine fires being put out that way but not wing fires ... usually when the wing catches fire .... the pilot bails or dies...

Well, if you have read some of the responses you can see why is AI programming hard. Same situation but very different reaction to it by different people. It's hard for AI to satisfy everybody. IMO best we can do is to enable AI to exhibit all kind of behavior characteristic to humans.

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I noticed that Ace AI fighters will keep chasing after and shooting enemy fighters when the enemy fighter is in flames and/or the engine is stopped. Just thought it was a waste of resources and ammo for them.

First of all, it is good to see you around Jumo, always a pleasure to see that some Il2 veterans are still playing this game.

They can recognize the "kill" sometimes but I'll see what can be done to improve it.

On the other hand, I have seen a number of times when Ace AI are themselves in disabled fighters or bombers, either on fire or with stopped engines or missing controls and they continue to fly the aircraft instead of bail.

Again, there is a part of the code that should deal with such situations, I'll put it on the TODO list.

Not a problem for me, and I am sure that in WWII some chose to stick with their aircraft rather than bail, but in the cases I am talking about the aircraft ends up crashing and killing the crew.
Maybe something is damaged or the AI are wounded and they can not bail out? Altitude does not seem to be a factor as sometimes they will bail so low they hit the ground too fast and die.

That's entirely possible.

So depending on how you look at it things with the AI can either be faults or simply imitating humans with all their faults and erratic behavior.

Exactly, AI have right to be stupid, after all, we have all witnessed idiotic human behavior on servers.

As far as fighting ability goes, the Ace AI is still not as good as the better human pilots flying online, it is damn good but not like human Ace pilots.

Correct 100%, but if we make AI aces as good as some online pilot I met( you included) who would fly this game? IMO for gameplay reasons, it is ideal for AI to be good but just not as good as best humans.

FC

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by FC99

Correct 100%, but if we make AI aces as good as some online pilot I met( you included) who would fly this game? IMO for gameplay reasons, it is ideal for AI to be good but just not as good as best humans.FC

If possible it would be great to have a level above Ace, call it "undefeatable" or "legendary" as if you were flying against one of the great WWII aces.

Just as it is no fun to lose all the time, it is equally boring to always win. People can choose the level they want to play against. If someone loses to the "legendary" pilots in IL2, then they don't have to feel bad as everyone lost to them in WWII also...