Team Balancing Discussion

[Catseye]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

I would have agreed a few weeks back, but since the Spit 1a was corrected (Slightly) I have seen less of the hurris being flown. They do seem to do more damage... probably due to the position of the guns, more focused.

Yes, it is interesting to see pilots in both RED and BLUE jumping into what the percieve is the best aircraft without really examining how the operate on the server. In effect, the Hurricane is a very fine performer when going up against the 109 with one exception - if the 109 pilot flies the 109 correctly boom and zoom, the Hurri can continue to evade but, if the 109 tries to turn fight - kiss the 109 goodbye.

In my opinion, I think that a lot of guys fly Blue because it is "easier" to fly the 109E4 than any of the RED aircraft. But, once one becomes familiar with RED aircraft abilities and how to take advantage of them the tables are turned very quickly.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

I think you have completely missed my point mate, I am all for historical accuracy but I can't abide people that will always join the side they want regardless of how many ppl are on it, you have to admit 24 v 10 is not great but I still flew anyway.

It's nothing to do with historical accuracy.

Okay, then let me state thefollowing: You will not find "balance" on an open DF server. The audience is far too diverse for that. Other people in other sims have tried to solve that issue and failed.

Based on what BlackDog said I think it's (ATM at least) a question of mission design and scripting, or rather the lack of sufficiently advanced designs and scripts, since right now incorporating the level bombers is a technical problem (with the AI), a gameplay problem (Ju 88 compass bug, Blenheim handling issues etc) and last but not least a scoring problem (no way to assess damage to a static area target, yet). I have been an advocate of mission designs which adhere to basic historical facts (planeset, numbers, target categories etc) while balancing imbalances (planeset and numbers) via target selection and number of goals to achieve. This way an imbalance in planeset (i.e. one side has a considerable technological advantage) and/or numbers can be circumvented by making the side with the advantages go for more targets than the disadvantaged side. This forces players to cooperate more, and by giving aerial victories very little impact in the grand scheme of things the designer can attribute far more importance to bombers and Stukas than common on DF servers, the steady gangbang will, while not being totally removed, be pushed back into a niche. SNAFU made missions and a concept which goes this way, it's just the engine which ain't up to it, yet, and we as a community do not have the tools to really work with the potential of this sim, yet. That'll take time ...

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

Yeah, I try to to join up with others in TS since I am the only JG52 guy flying CoD atm ... but I seem to have started going Lone Wolf/Death Wish style.

I have come a cropper when meeting you 56RAF and JG27 guys in your group flights... so much so that when I see a group of 3-4 Hurris or a few 109s with 110s I pee myself... WELL NEXT TIME I AM GOING TO SEND YOU THE DRY CLEANING BILL

Nice to see we are doing it right


Note to all: Would people mind adding those extra key strokes 5./ or even 5 before the JG27. Seems all we get refered to is JG27 which is actually a different unit or several units, depends which way you look at it. Not just you Krupi, allot of people do it. Thanks

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Catseye

One more thing. Numbers on the server mean squat. Five of those numbers could be in bombers!

Or even 24! Oh my, imagine 24 blue bomber pilots and 10 red fighter pilots online.

But to take this line of thinking further, any balancing of numbers by scripting or otherwise, in whatever ratio you care to name, is ignoring the AI population of the server also. I don't know myself what is built into the ATAG server as far as AI is concerned at any given time. Would these have to be counted also to make it 'fair'? Surely that'd be ludicrous.

If you're talking about a purely dogfighting server, where it's simply red vs blue flying fighters only, with no AI, fine. Keeping numbers as equal as possible is only right and proper for this type of game. I've enjoyed them myself in the past.

But in a server such as ATAG 1, where there are AI bombers and fighters on both sides (I think), with ground targets to attack for both sides, and bombers as well as fighters for the human pilots to choose from, how do you achieve parity from moment to moment? And why would you want to?

P.S. Yes I appreciate that the AI 109's don't continually strafe Manston.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by Catseye

You're not in a position to state that I am wrong when I say that I have taken off literally hundreds of times from the Manston area - that is a FACT and is still being done and I fly a Hurricane. This in effect is calling me a liar - you can check my stats if you have them to see how many times I have died versus my flight/kill ratio.

I STILL take off from those two airfields successfully. I think that someone said that rather than just jumping into an aircraft at a particular airfield, you need to do further planning than just getting in and rolling. If you like to take off at Hawkinge - instead take off at Limpne. I take off there also many times using the hills and valleys to my advantage and jump 109 pilots who don't know how to fly the 109.

You just stated that 109's were circling and spit 2a's ran them off. Then that's when you take off mate!! Then plan your exit from that field carefully and utilize your aircraft to optimum performance.

I really don't know what your problem is other than not spawning in a planned way.

One more thing. Numbers on the server mean squat. Five of those numbers could be in bombers!

Firstly there were 2 110 and 2 blenhiems so no dice. Infact you might as well say there were only 8 red

And you are wrong as it will stand to reason that the blues want to remove the spit 2 threat, but as the spit 2 is so good its capable of fighting back even just after take off, the spit 2 at Manston hasn't really being around too long but you can't tell me that the blues don't try and stop them.

P.s. I have taken off from hawkinge a hindered times as well doesn't mean that it's not a target for the blues

[VO101_Tom]

It can be done, that limits the number of aircraft. This is OK. Then - just ask, I do not know the scripts - it would be difficult to do, (both sides) 4-5 aircraft always start from the air? This could be a nearby backup AFB, main task would be to protect its own AFBs? SpitIa - E1 aircrafts, for example?

Sure, maybe someone sit, and immediately shifted to the other coast at sea level, but these team should be regulated.

The strong AAA generate huge lag, even in the small dogfight maps :/ Otherwise, they are loser blind gunners. Only luck if they do not shoot each other

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by csThor

Okay, then let me state thefollowing: You will not find "balance" on an open DF server. The audience is far too diverse for that. Other people in other sims have tried to solve that issue and failed.

Based on what BlackDog said I think it's (ATM at least) a question of mission design and scripting, or rather the lack of sufficiently advanced designs and scripts, since right now incorporating the level bombers is a technical problem (with the AI), a gameplay problem (Ju 88 compass bug, Blenheim handling issues etc) and last but not least a scoring problem (no way to assess damage to a static area target, yet). I have been an advocate of mission designs which adhere to basic historical facts (planeset, numbers, target categories etc) while balancing imbalances (planeset and numbers) via target selection and number of goals to achieve. This way an imbalance in planeset (i.e. one side has a considerable technological advantage) and/or numbers can be circumvented by making the side with the advantages go for more targets than the disadvantaged side. This forces players to cooperate more, and by giving aerial victories very little impact in the grand scheme of things the designer can attribute far more importance to bombers and Stukas than common on DF servers, the steady gangbang will, while not being totally removed, be pushed back into a niche. SNAFU made missions and a concept which goes this way, it's just the engine which ain't up to it, yet, and we as a community do not have the tools to really work with the potential of this sim, yet. That'll take time ...

Agreed but I don't see ATAG as a dogfight server and I am sure Bliss, Boris and Watchman do either!

[GF_Mastiff]

Well, I'll chime in now. Why don't we see some historical fuel cost for the Sim?

I thought the FM was such that they fly over to England and only had 15 to 20 minutes of Fuel left? I know that's enough time to do what ever but it would sure make for Aircraft management?

[robtek]

You wont find the often quoted 15 to 20 min. fighting time for the 109 because that number was created at a time were the 109 had to fly to a meeting point, wait there for the bombers, then escort the bombers, which didn't fly the direct way, to London and then back.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

Well, I'll chime in now. Why don't we see some historical fuel cost for the Sim?

I thought the FM was such that they fly over to England and only had 15 to 20 minutes of Fuel left? I know that's enough time to do what ever but it would sure make for Aircraft management?

Good point, being wondering this myself!