109 advice needed (climb)

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

Oh, there is abundance of proof that the 109 for instance is too slow. Please look up again the corresponding threads.

I guess that there has been similar data posted for other planes as well.

EDIT: On the how to do a sim: I have a couple of years experience in the aerospace business as an engineer and I work for a research institute in this field. One field of our research are hypersonic planes. As any hypersonic plane has to accelerate through the subsonic velocity range (and deccelerate later for landing) we put some effort in studying subsonic aerodynamics. From all experience we have collected I can say one thing: there is not ONE single simplified method that can predict accurately the aerodynamic forces in the subsonic region (but some adequate approximations) for low and medium subsonic speeds. When the speed approaches transsonic speeds it basically gets guesswork.

Only halfway trustworthy aerodynamic results by calculation would be to do the fully viscous NS-equations (provided they can be solved correctly) but this is not at all practicable for a flight sim as the calculation for one flight point only (Ma, altitude, angle of attack, sideslip angle) would take a lot of time and we would need an enormous number of flight points in order to create a sufficiently large data base. And again, as a researcher who respects himself, I would request to verify some calculated points by wind tunnel tests ...

And we yet have not even talked about the damping coefficients which are even more difficult to assess by wind tunnel tests let alone determine by calculations ...

Very interesting Storm.

But you don't always hve to go trough the full range of NS eq even in RL. Hopefully You can use simplified form and some fair assumptions to get a valid result.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

I knew that you would ask other ppl to do the search work for you.

As I knew you were talking out your A when you said there is an abundance of proof

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

But you don't always hve to go trough the full range of NS eq even in RL. Hopefully You can use simplified form and some fair assumptions to get a valid result.

Exactally

[svend]

Originally Posted by SEE

I love this sim but the FM...... Here's a quote from Adolf Galland taken from an interview with him regards the allied ac during the BoB.

"the Hurricane was hopeless, nice to shoot down though!"

But changes are afoot (I hope!) and spare a thought for those of us (in Spits) who are yelling ' throttle back - can't keep up with you!'

1. Galland was a damn good pilot he had it in his blood
2. Alot of the allied pilots where new and untestet in combat (which Galland wasnt).

[svend]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

Biggest thing you were doing wrong is climbing at a constant speed (unless its either way lower or way higher). 300kph is like cruising speed for a 109, if you think climbing at cruising speed is enough to get away, you're mistaken. Either go into a all out climb (250kph or less), or get your engine management down and climb at 400kph. The Hurri will have a hard time maintaining that speed at the same angle climb as you, it might take 10 minutes, but you will eventually end up with higher alt than him, or if he tries to match your angle, he'll drop a bit of speed, and you'll slowly pull away. Pick one end of the spectrum or the other, but never pick the in-between. That's well within a Hurri's flight envelop, so you're not gaining anything on him. At that speed, you shouldn't have to use full throttle, so you were wasting your engine power but flying at that speed with that rpm.

+1

[svend]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Funny.. but while reading this I was struck with how much it sounded like an actual WWII account.. Which to me says the FMs are not as bad as some would have us belive! Long story short, you fly it like it is real and chances are you will get a real feeling experience! Fly it like it is a game where you are not worried about dying, thus you jump into a fight that a real pilot would not, and chances are you will NOT get a real feeling experience!


Bingo!

As my sig suggest! Most sim pilots are missing one key component in their personality that real WWII pilots had in spades.. The ability to look in the mirror and realize the source of the mistake!


Agreed 100%

To both of you. Agree 100%! Learn, adapt, take your time and do not get your self into trouble To apply real tactics here would be rather boring for most simmers I think - or?

In rl pilots in WWII would do everything to live another day to se their love ones again - that fear is someting we do not have to deal with when online or offline. Infact we only have our pride to deal with, when something goes wrong and we get shotdown or whatever "we push our luck too much perhaps" do the same mistakes over and over again because, that damn plane should be much more superior than my counter part. Knowing your plane and applying tactics in the true spirit of the aircraft we are flying is a big part in how to survive - and survive!

Aces who survived the war do not talk alot about luck and if they do you can se the serious look in their face or grin/smile, that pushing your luck can go realy bad! They for sure know We all know alot about Hartmann and you can be damn sure he wasnt one who played with luck, the tactic he he used has alot about to do with survival and have a escape plan if needed (part of his tactic). Sticking our neck out is not about pushing your luck it`s about beeing in an environment that can get you killed if you dont know, what you are doing.

It scares me, when FM is put into focus, as you will never know if the goal is to adapt the plane to the player and not the other way around Im saying this in a rather human and friendly way AND! not ment to bash anyone

If I get any holes in my plane or bullets are directed at me it`s damn sure it`s my own fault simply because I pushed my luck to fare and getting into a situation that wasnt good for me and my plane.

[jf1981]

Originally Posted by reflected

Just now I shot up a Hurricane head on, then I started climbing away (I had E advantage) . I trimmed my E-3 perfectly, 2400 RPM, full throttle, climbing at 300 kph. By the time we were over France the Hurricane got within firing distance and shot me down.

What was I doing wrong? I obviously made a mistake, because the Hurricane was notorious for being slow, and sluggish, like a grand-piano with a Merlin.

Thanks in advance.

Hurri's vertical speed is quite good. Its top speed is'nt.

I've measured in actual state of CoD some 2600 ft/min and BF109 E3 700 m/min (2300 ft/min), therefore Hurri may catch you in a vertical climb at reduced speed.

How accurate the models are compared to reality, this needs to be checked and it might change.

[TomcatViP]

Actually it's completely normal. It's all about thick wings.

In a slow speed climb :
Thicker airfoil -> less AoA -> less drag - > higher climb rate for a given horizontal speed.

You need to spiral up to get away with the 109 or the hurri will catch you.

As a side note, Hurri with boost cut out can be slightly over modeled in certain situation. You need to be keep yourself alerted in that situation. Anyway if you are in the front sector of any opponents, it's time to have a close look at what you are doing