New docs on Pearl Harbor attack emerge

[Sternjaeger II]

well I don't think there's much conspiracy theory going on frankly: this is just further evidence that the US Government was aware of the threat of a Japanese attack.

The situation was dramatically simple: after the horrors of WW1, isolationism was the running policy, but by 1929 the price of such choice was having horrible effects on the US economy. Roosevelt was aware that the only way of boosting the economy was to join the war effort, but was also aware that the American public opinion wouldn't have been happy with their country declaring war on not clear grounds. They needed a pretext, and they probably deliberately ignored all the intelligence related to a possible attack. They probably expected something like a sunken ship or similar stuff, not such a large scale attack, but whichever the case, that was enough of a reason to wage war against Japan, and automatically its allies.

I think there's no "conspiracy theory" going on, it's a theory believed and accepted by most historians, and which is gathering more evidence.. unfortunately historians are not the public opinion, so yes, it might sound a tad unpopular among the average, flag waving US population, but that's how things are.

Truth is that even if they found a tape with Roosevelt's voice which said "hey, we're just gonna provoke the Japs with an embargo and then wait for them to retaliate so we have an excuse for a war", a lot of people wouldn't still believe it..

[fireship4]

I had heard this before also, but is it really accepted amongst the majority of historians? I hadn't thought it was.

Wasn't the japanese capture of rubber (and other raw material) producing countries/areas also concerning/hurting the US?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by fireship4

I had heard this before also, but is it really accepted amongst the majority of historians? I hadn't thought it was.

Wasn't the japanese capture of rubber (and other raw material) producing countries/areas also concerning/hurting the US?

sorry, I should have said serious historians

Joking aside, the evidence is there, it's down to what people want to believe really.

Apart for the tone of the website (which yes, is a bit OTT), there's a very detailed report here http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...315/pearl.html

and another one
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

The best thing is that everything that doesn't comply with the official line of the Government is automatically tagged as "conspiracy theory"

[fireship4]

As long as you don't define "serious historian" as one who agrees with what you believe. Don't take that the wrong way though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the way you described.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by fireship4

As long as you don't define "serious historian" as one who agrees with what you believe. Don't take that the wrong way though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the way you described.

lol no, my assertion about "serious historians" was made in jest

As I said, there's a lot of evidence, but if one wants to believe otherwise, then there's not much it can be done.

[Sven]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

and another one
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

The best thing is that everything that doesn't comply with the official line of the Government is automatically tagged as "conspiracy theory"

Just quickly read through some parts of that text, if what Stinnett says is true, then Roosevelt must have known. But if he knew, why didn't he warn the naval base? Was it essential that the attack was devastating? Or was he afraid the Japanese wouldn't attack if they got a last minute warning about the new situation on the base?

To me it seems much more likely that Roosevelt and his generals vastly underestimated the Japanese naval power even though Japan was regarded hostile at that point.
I think they thought the base was well able to defend itself when Japan would attack with ships.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Sven

Just quickly read through some parts of that text, if what Stinnett says is true, then Roosevelt must have known. But if he knew, why didn't he warn the naval base? Was it essential that the attack was devastating? Or was he afraid the Japanese wouldn't attack if they got a last minute warning about the new situation on the base?

To me it seems much more likely that Roosevelt and his generals vastly underestimated the Japanese naval power even though Japan was regarded hostile at that point.
I think they thought the base was well able to defend itself when Japan would attack with ships.

yeah, I think they didn't expect such a large scale attack, and the Japanese wanted to show they meant business.. again, the bigger the attack, the larger the outburst of retaliation.

[CharveL]

Often times in history (indeed in everyday life) there are more than one convergent events and decisions that don't necessarily attribute cause and effect to only one line of reasoning.

It may be true that Roosevelt was both aware that some sort of attack was imminent and that it could be the way around the problem of getting public opinion behind a war but that does not mean either that he deliberately let PH happen.

Life is funny like that.

It seems more likely to me that they weren't expecting an attack of that magnitude given they had no idea about the clever mods the Japanese did to their torpedos for shallow water attacks, employing mini-subs, and the ability of their carrier groups to get all the way to Hawaii unnoticed.

Drawing the conclusion that Roosevelt deliberately let it happen is as logically absurd as any other conclusion although I do see it makes for more dramatic storytelling than the mundane version that he didn't really see it coming.

It could have happened that way though, who knows, I'm also not saying it didn't.

I think the whole conspiracy theory phenomenon has taken off over the last 20 odd years because society is so bombarded with movies and television that always find a way to make the impossible and unlikely scenario into a reasonable one, that when we are faced with any circumstantial evidence for the highly unlikely, we would much rather choose the more dramatic option. Perhaps subconsciously.

I think it's a similar scenario to the way rumours spread in a social circle. One person hears something and tells it with just a little extra flair and by the time it gets back around the original situation is always distorted.

[TomcatViP]

Sry but US didn't need to be involved in a war to feed their economy.

The war was alrdy raging in EU and China and all the allies fighting were dependent of US materials. Moreover in 1939 teh US economy had alrdy recovered from the great depression.

http://www.usstuckonstupid.com/sos_charts.php

US were more concerned with the War in the Atlantic and the way to protect their marchand fleet and their neutrality.

The last thing they wanted was a war in the Pacific that proved way more costly than profitable.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/pe...acific/numbers

You'll see easily (bottom page) that despite suffering for nearly no destruction in its continental soil, the War did cost much more to the US than any other nations.

The huge cost of furious destruction all over France is also easy readable.

[Sternjaeger II]

wait wait wait, we're not talking about Elvis getting anally probed by aliens here, that's why I think the term "conspiracy theory" is a bit abused.

We're talking about a vast amount of intelligence and witnessing gathered over the years, together with the financial/political situation of the time, which depicts a scenario that is light years away from the image of astonishment and righteousness of the infamy speech by Roosevelt.

I mean, if you look at the infamy speech itself, sentences like this are quite frankly the not so hidden sign of a hidden agenda
"Now [war] has come and we must meet it as united Americans regardless of our attitude in the past toward the policy our Government has followed. ... Our country has been attacked by force of arms, and by force of arms we must retaliate. We must now turn every effort to building the greatest and most efficient Army, Navy and Air Force in the world."