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[CWMV]

Originally Posted by klem

Their are three outcomes of introducing the near-correctly modelled SpitIIa in this controlled way.

1. It gives reds a chance to fly an aircraft that is being denied them, even if on half-reasonable grounds, and I would certainly like the opportunity to fly it on line. That's one 'injustice' resolved.

Not like they are denied it elswhere

2. Until now the 109s have had it all their own way because even with the Rotol Hurricane the 109, properly flown, is king whereas the Spitfire was actually the superior dogfighting aircraft and under the right circumstances could beat the 109 in an energy fight too. It wasn't only the 109s that could play the energy game. The reds have been denied that simply because of the 109 modelling (this is a 109 problem remember, not a Spit IIa problem). At present the currently undermodelled Spitfire Ia versus the current 109 is every bit as bad as an undermodelled 109 versus a current Spitfire IIa. How do you think it feels to know that every time you fly red you are going to lose an even-numbered match unless the 109 pilot is stupid? That's another 'injustice' resolved.

probably about the way it felt climbing into a hurri or Spit in the BoB.
So were supposed to believe that throwing an uber (or rather, correct) aircraft in the game because the reds cant beat the 109 and feel really bad about it? Come now! Thats preposterous. ive been shot down a number of times by very good red pilots, and Ive claimed more than a few 109's in my hurri when I have to fly red.
There isnt a problem until you introduce the Spit IIa. All the other aircraft are undermodeled, sure, but they are all hobbled so no advantage to anyone.
heck if you want to look at it like this, just make blue fly in G50's, would that make the reds feel better?

3. If, post-patch, properly modelled 109s are going to die to properly modelled Spitfires it just means that for a while, until the next patch comes out, a few are going to die a lot quicker than at present. Just for a short while the advantage will swing to the reds (who are usually outnumbered on the ATAG server anyway).

Ah I see, so because more people want to fly 109's they should be punished, got it.
And whos to say that they will ever come out with accurate FM's? IL2 '46 to this day has incredibly bad FM's for some aircraft that havent been remedied in 10 years!
But that is a discussion for another time. this companies penchant for punishing the blue side is something that has been discused ad nauseam.

It may not be great from the blue point of view but flying the undermodelled SpitIa is very frustrating atm because compared with the undermodelled 109 it feels more undermodelled than the 109.

Flying the undermodeled 109 is no joy either. Being outclimbed by a HURRICANE in any situation is just incredible. But again here we are, they are both undermodeled, so no advantage. Sorry you guys feel frustrated, but so do we.

Anyway, given the next patch is imminent its not a big deal.

And no, I probably won't be flying it myself as our Squad majors on Hurricanes, a historical issue for us, and we work as a unit which nullifies the problem considerably.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by klem

2. Until now the 109s have had it all their own way because even with the Rotol Hurricane the 109, properly flown, is king whereas the Spitfire was actually the superior dogfighting aircraft and under the right circumstances could beat the 109 in an energy fight too. It wasn't only the 109s that could play the energy game. The reds have been denied that simply because of the 109 modelling (this is a 109 problem remember, not a Spit IIa problem). At present the currently undermodelled Spitfire Ia versus the current 109 is every bit as bad as an undermodelled 109 versus a current Spitfire IIa. How do you think it feels to know that every time you fly red you are going to lose an even-numbered match unless the 109 pilot is stupid? That's another 'injustice' resolved.

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2. They are not required to merely hope for the other guy to make a mistake, as they have angles tactics available to them. The 109 is faster and can disengage at will but two Hurricanes working together (ANY aircraft operating on its own is useless when facing teamwork) are a force to be reckoned with. The problem I see most on ATAG is that a lot of pilots (Red AND Blue, but seemingly more Red) are flying across the Channel at low altitudes and finding themselves with 109s overhead. I've lost count of the number of times I've flown over to England and seen nobody above 4000m/15000ft. That really isn't very high, and quite frankly the Hurricanes should be operating higher than that.

3. If, post-patch, properly modelled 109s are going to die to properly modelled Spitfires it just means that for a while, until the next patch comes out, a few are going to die a lot quicker than at present. Just for a short while the advantage will swing to the reds (who are usually outnumbered on the ATAG server anyway).

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing. I could just as easily bring up the JG27 missions where Blue was outnumbered severely and got our butts kicked.

I understand that the spit 1a might be outmatched, but I don't think that introducing the Spit 2a is the correct solution.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2. They are not required to merely hope for the other guy to make a mistake, as they have angles tactics available to them. The 109 is faster and can disengage at will but two Hurricanes working together (ANY aircraft operating on its own is useless when facing teamwork) are a force to be reckoned with. The problem I see most on ATAG is that a lot of pilots (Red AND Blue, but seemingly more Red) are flying across the Channel at low altitudes and finding themselves with 109s overhead. I've lost count of the number of times I've flown over to England and seen nobody above 4000m/15000ft. That really isn't very high, and quite frankly the Hurricanes should be operating higher than that.

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing. I could just as easily bring up the JG27 missions where Blue was outnumbered severely and got our butts kicked.

I understand that the spit 1a might be outmatched, but I don't think that introducing the Spit 2a is the correct solution.

+1

I never fly the Spit IIa when on Red, in fact I was team balancing last night on Red on the ATAG server and flew a hurri Rotal. Got about two kills including one where I chased a 109 up to around 5000m's and got him, admittedly it was an epic fight but I enjoyed it very much.

Plus the FM's are not right yet. It will be very interesting to see what 1c do to the FM's.

Also the SpitfireI was in its infancy whereas the 109 had been in development since its first flight in 1935, it had also been tried and tested allot more. The Spitfire didnt just roll of the factory line and decimate the Luftwaffe... It was an arms race where sometimes the 109 was better, some times the Spitfire was better... Its 1940, not 1945.

[trumps]

Originally Posted by CWMV

EDIT: More on this, what great injustice were you attempting to correct for "the community as a whole" by introducing the x-wing?

LOL, sorry mate you have got it all wrong, this is going to be the ANTI X-wing, well thats the theory anyway.

Craig

[Robo.]

I've seen Mk.IIa Spitfires last night and came on ATAG forum for more intel on that. I am not happy to see it there. From the discussion if feels like they were toying with the Mk.IIa idea mainly because the RAF side got their wings kicked by Russian group of pilots flying well and flying together in very good machines (E-4). I don't think that reaction on their successfull tactics should be adding a better airplane on Red side What I also understood from some opinions, this is to restrict vulching Hawkinge and Lympne airfields. Anyone who ever been on ATAG knows what I mean but again, this is not very good. On the end of the day, it's up to server guys really, I respect their decision and stick to Mk.Is on my end.

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics

In my opinion, it is not. You have to outlfy the 109 pilot by great margin and you have to be very good at keeping your energy. Good Bf 109 pilot will give you little chance - my experience at least.

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2.

This is very true, the performance gap between Mk.IIa and Emil is massive

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing.

Depends when you fly perhaps - I am in the UK, flying mornings, afternoons and late nights (as late as 3am sometimes) and I can confirm that Blue is much more popular at any of these times. In fact, I keep making screenshots of the stats when I notice the odds are way way waaay off. Happens very often. I don't mind it at all, it is obvious that everyone wants to fly an E-4. What I don't like and what makes me leave the server is when I fly Red, there is 16 blues to 4 red and no matter where I spawn (Manston, Lympne, Hawkinge, even Maidstone), I get killed on the ground by some kid in a E-4. Doesn't happen too often though. What klem says about Blue vs. Red is generally true, very rarely can you see Reds being in majority - I know that because I fly any side that needs more pilots and I end up flying RAF 95 percent of the time.

Obviously this decision will upset lots of strictly blue pilots - well, deal with it I would say, it's still just a Spitfire.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Hmm I have seen allot of people flying the E4, however not me. I find it more challenging to use the E3 without the minengeschoss. You all know the only difference is a faulty auto prop pitch and minengeschoss dont you?

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

In my opinion, it is not. You have to outlfy the 109 pilot by great margin and you have to be very good at keeping your energy. Good Bf 109 pilot will give you little chance - my experience at least.

Keep in mind I said angles tactics. Trying to use energy tactics against the 109 is not a good move unless he's already slow or you have a significant altitude advantage.

This is very true, the performance gap between Mk.IIa and Emil is massive

And in my opinion much larger than the gap between the Hurri and the Emil.

Obviously this decision will upset lots of strictly blue pilots - well, deal with it I would say, it's still just a Spitfire.

"Just" a spitfire is fine and dandy until squadrons start using them with good team tactics, and in good numbers. 6 guys, maybe even as few as 4 guys would have the ability to completely decimate the Axis side.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Hmm I have seen allot of people flying the E4, however not me. I find it more challenging to use the E3 without the minengeschoss. You all know the only difference is a faulty auto prop pitch and minengeschoss dont you?

The auto prop pitch works okay if you pop it in and out of manual mode just before you start your takeoff roll. It's not as good performance as properly-managed manual pitch but for me the decreased workload is a big plus.

[Blakduk]

I only get to fly occassionally these days (kids, work, life, etc getting in the way of gaming!) but all my online play is on the ATAG server. I always join on the side that is under-represented, and last weekend for the first time in months i got to fly blue. After flying for approx 1hr i took a break and came back- same old mismatch with blue getting twice the number that red had.
My advice to red fliers- forget your prejudice for Spits! The Spit 1a is a dog (the neg g cutout is much more sensitive than it is in the Hurri)
Jump in a hurricane, get on TS, get some altitude and pick off the vultures as they get down and dirty over Hawkinge and Lympne.
Too many times players are blaming equipment when it's their tactics that are at fault- going one-on-one with a 109E that has higher E and is not being stupid will get you killed.
The advice to anyone playing these games is the same as that given to people who are into autoerotic asphyxiation- dont do it alone, you will die!

[klem]

SWMV I can't disagree with most of your points, I think I acknowledged that the SpitIIa gives reds an unreal advantage, I'd just like it to be with the Reds for a short while
So lets be clear I know its a big advantage. But why not for the reds just for the hell of it for a while.
After the patch (god willing) we can have a different discussion

Yes I've shot down plenty of 109s in a Hurricane where the 109 hasn't been flown to its best advantage but No, the Hurricane cannot outclimb a properly flown 109. True I can almost keep up with it in level speed and perhaps gain on it maybe due to how its flown, I'm not sure, but in climb? No. Believe me I have chased enough to know that. So the properly flown 109 is in no real danger from the Hurricane.

At the moment the only 109s that get shot down are those that are not flown to its strengths or where they are cornered/outnumbered or attacked by an aircraft with energy advantage. Thats not a FM issue its a tactics issue.

CaptainDoggles, bearing in mind we are talking about individual aircraft FMs and assuming your are talking 1v1 of course the Hurricane outclasses the 109 in angles tactics, it will when they are both properly modelled but that's not the best way to fly a 109. When a 109 is properly flown (I don't know how to but I do know I have met them) the Hurricane cannot lay a finger on it. I have to wait for the 109 to make a mistake.

btw we regularly operate at 15000 feet or above and hardly ever see a dicky-bird.

"Just" a spitfire is fine and dandy until squadrons start using them with good team tactics, and in good numbers. 6 guys, maybe even as few as 4 guys would have the ability to completely decimate the Axis side.
Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but don't fly alone.

Farber,
by the time of the BoB the Spitfire I wasn't exactly an infant, several improvements like Rotols had been put in on most aircraft although much more was to come. Al Deere in his autobiography describes his first fight with 109Es during the Dunkirk period. He and Johnny Checketts covered a light aircraft rescuing a Squadron CO from the beaches. Johnny went above the low clouds to cover and ran into several (probably two schwarms) of 109Es. He was up to his neck but shot two down before the others made off while one 109E had gone below clouds and fought for several minutes with Al Deere who shot it down. This was in Spitfire Mk1s ! Al Deere was absolutely convinced that in all but climb and dive (mostly cutout problem) the Spitfire I was better than the 109E in that kind of a fight.

So, yes I know the Spit IIa is a big advantage but we don't really have anything to match a properly flown 109. And ATAG are only putting on a few as I understand it.

BUT, roll on the patch