Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[Blackdog_kt]

Funny that i just finished watching a documentary/journalist report on Russia's evolution during the last 10-20 years.

Putin is no saint, but despite his iron grip he usually enjoys an approval rate of 70% or so. Let's assume this is somewhat doctored by his control on Russian media, it still is way above 50%, way higher than what state leaders in most western countries have.

When dealing with a foreign country, you should first attempt to deal with the prevailing sentiment of the people who live there and their culture and background. If you look back in history you'll see one thing about Russians, they support powerful leaders, not necessarily fair but powerful ones.

They endured the Czars, then they installed a communist/socialist government model through a revolution that still had an iron grip on things. After that, they tried a western model and all hell broke loose, but finally they more or less settled for a compromise...they still have a Czar/Party Premier it's just that they vote him themselves. They choose their own tyrants (in the ancient Greek sense, which means a single ruler but not hereditary like a King) and they seem content to do so. If that's the way they want to be governed, who am i to tell them otherwise? You can't force democracy on people, because forcing anything on anyone is as far from democracy as it gets, ie you become a "democracic-fanatic". If the part in quote marks sounds ridiculous and contradictory to the extreme, it's only because it is that ridiculous to believe you can make people like democracy by force.

If the majority didn't like it trust me, they would have done something. If nothing else, they've shown through history that they have a tremendous capacity to resist and overcome whatever comes their way, not only as a whole but individually as well.

Maybe the Russian mindset is not suited to a western government model. I know a lot of Russians because many of them moved to Greece 10-15 years ago and live here permanently. One thing i can understand about them is that they don't care as much about what they get, but what they have to do to get it. They are headstrong, they can party in a frenzy like nobody (to the point that's scary, if you've seen a drunk Russian you fear nothing afterwards ), but most of all, they are very proud people, extremely fair if you show them respect and prepared go to hell and back for someone they respect or something they value.

They might even be good people that do bad things or bad people that do good things, because they live by a code that's vastly different to our own. And what's most important to them is their sense of pride and their code, to the point that many are willing to sacrifice personal freedoms to preserve their values.

There were two kinds of people that spoke against Putin in that documentary. One is the group of businessmen who effectively stole Russia's natural wealth. The people who agreed to support Yeltsin in exchange for erasing their loan debts, the same loans they used to buy every oil and gas company in the country. Those are upset because Putin hunts them down.

The other group are ordinary civilians, mostly poor people, the ones whom we would suspect to be prime supporters of democracy. Well, these guys, the beggars in the streets of Moscow, the unemployed, these guys said "Stalinist times were bad, but after him it was better than it is today, especially 60s and 70s." These guys considered the communist model preferable to a western style "democracy". They have tried a bit of both, we have not, so even if i don't consider myself a communist, i can't help thinking they might have a point due to experience alone.

As for the defensive missiles, it's not about defense per se. It's about the possibility of one superpower to negate the single most efficient doctrine of the previous century, one that was called "MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction" and kept us all from blowing eachother to bits.

Let's see a recent example. When Cyprus bought S-300 SAMs from Russia, the US and UK were happily whistling along while having full knowledge of the fact that Turkey was making plans to attack them in transit. They even stated in public that they would attack a EU candidate (at that time, Cyprus is now in EU proper) and risk a war with another NATO country (Greece namely) and still nobody lifted a finger. Those missiles negated much of their air superiority advantage in the event of a conflict and subsequently, their political leverage (in layman's terms, it lowered their chances for a successful blackmail attempt). In the end these missiles were not deployed to Cyprus, but Crete instead.

Now, the US is planning to install a system that will severely curtail Russia's nuclear deterrence capabilities. Not a few SAM sites that will target some stray Sukhois, but a system that will make it possible for the US to launch against anyone with total impunity, and hence total disregard for non-american human lives as their track record has shown, but on a scale so far unseen.
Russia doesn't care about Iran because Iran won't attack them. A lot of European countries care but don't necessarily fear Iran, because they are not the ones who've been bombing middle eastern countries during the last 10-20 years (if we include all incidents and not just full blown wars).

What will change for Russia and that part of Europe if the system gets deployed is not an added sense of security against possible Iranian ICBMs, because the chances of seeing one come our way is slim anyway.
Instead, it's the increasingly troubling thought of the US gaining a "get out jail free" card a la Monopoly that worries us.

Sorry guys, but due to your track record ever since the end of the cold war we have more reasons to fear your president than the Mulahs in Tehran. If there really is a reason we should fear them, it is due to the actions taken by your administrations when they lump us all in their west vs east crusade without asking us first.

[nearmiss]

Fear Americans over the Iranians...

Interesting comment, there could be truth in that comment since Muslims are totally taking over Europe. They have anywhere from 6-8 children and within 20 years they'll be the majority voters in most of Europe. So, why would Muslims attack those in their religion who will be in the majority throughout most of Europe.

Europe has similar problems as US, the exploitation of cheap immigrant labor.

The obscure part of that is, it is an invasion, not immigration. It is disguised and played up by the multi-national companies and special interests in Europe just like here in the US, undocumented immigrants. The media is bought out, the governments are corrupted as well.

The Multi-nationals could care less about how many muslims there are, how many hungry there are, how many...etc. They are ONLY interested in making money "NOW". To hell with the future of nations, they're after the money.

There is an unchangeable fact about Muslims and we should all know it by now. There is no way to ever have lasting peace with them. They don't get along among themselves, and their disputes are wars and insurrections. They don't just hate Christians and Jews, even though they may make expressions of that. They hate Non-Muslims and it has been that way sense the creation of the Muslim religion.

As an American, I could careless about missiles in Poland.

As an American, the US government has colluded with the multi-national companies to build a super highway to reach their markets more efficiently and faster, extending all the way from the Mexican border through the United States to Canada. These multi-national companies are so powerful and influential the people of Texas (first phase of the highway) don't even get to vote whether the TTC (Trans Texas Corrridor) will be built. It will also be built with Texans money and they have no say in it, 180 billion dollars is not a small undertaking.

So, a highway in Texas who cares. Right, can you imagine how powerful these multi-national companies and special interests actually are. They will seize and pay the people for their property extending the length of the right of way for this highway and the people will have no say in what their property is worth.

They will only deal with one state at a time, that is their way. They incrementally take what they and deal with things as they come to them. A totally pragmatic attitude, just like their attitude regarding the future of any country or peoples.

Americas government is corrupted and the people in the EU will have their head handed to them as well, if they don't wake up.

The US and Europe have a lot more in common than you or I would think from reading the papers and watching the television. Europe is facing an immigration (invasion) crisis that may already be beyond repair.

It might just be missiles in Poland is just another way to get people's mind on a non-issue to keep them bumbling around while the multi-nationals and special interests brew their poisons.

The European Union will not be good for Europeans for long, especially since the multi-nationals want borderless lands and could care less about sovereignty of nations. Sure the Euro has increased in value from the prosperity in Europe, but at what price. The sovereignty of a nation is a steep price.

Dealing with these multi-national companies that have all these new tools of communication, transportation, easy access to nations, manipulations of governments that are beyond belief may be the hardest challenge we all face.

At some point the welfare of our people and the sovereignty of our country has to mean something worth fighting for.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

There is an unchangeable fact about Muslims and we should all know it by now. There is no way to ever have lasting peace with them. They don't get along among themselves, and their disputes are wars and insurrections. They don't just hate Christians and Jews, even though they may make expressions of that. They hate Non-Muslims and it has been that way sense the creation of the Muslim religion.

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

[Avimimus]

There have been several very tolerant Muslim dominated states in history. This kind of ignorant pseudo-genocidal talk is horrifying to me.

As I mentioned it earlier: I will just point out that Al-Qaeda's attacks have nothing to do with anti-americanism, but rather with gaining prestige and triggering civil wars in the middle east.

I will also say that democracy is something that is learned gradually by a society over decades of discussion, it is the belief that everyone has a role in producing and taking responsibility for government, and finally, that one can respect an opponent and give them time to learn and change.

That said, I really appreciate the olive branches poster in this thread and the wisdom of some of its people. But I don't think I can continue without "storming out of the room", due to this last comment (about Islam). There is no society wide enemy that is impossible to negotiate with.

This is the kind of reasoning that advocated the destruction of North America's aboriginal population (on the grounds that they were naturally unable to peacefully co-exist with civilisation) and a first strike against China's population centers (on the grounds that they were athiest/mind-controlled/communists who were out to kill anyone over 15 years of age or 20k a year income).

Think before you write, people do listen and sometimes a few casual attitudes do, in the long run, lead to unspeakable results.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by mondo

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

[311thCopperhead]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The Muslims and infidels (as we are called) have never been reconciled with each other since the Crusades.

It isn't about favoring any religion, it is written in the Koran to strike off the head of the infidel. There is no tolerance or peace possible when it is written in the Muslim bible. The only peace possible is temporary or tentative peace.

Europeans and the Brits have large problems with Muslim immigrants now. Kosovo and Serbia have certainly had their differences. The Russians have their problems with Muslims as well. It isn't about who is right are wrong, it is about being Muslim or not.

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

I'd say that is some darn serious chatter, only a fool would ignore such talk.

There are exceptions among Muslim believers that just want to live and let live, but they aren't very persuasive among their Muslim brothers. This may be the type Muslims about whom you are thinking.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being in a country like that is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

+1
Personally.....the feeling is mutual.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

[Bobb4]

There is no such thing as an Islamic Extremist. Islam is a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a Christian Extremist. Christianity is a religion of peace.
But there are people and they are daft buggers who like war. Even at a young age most of us buy our children guns, model tanks and planes and then we wonder why they grow-up and join the army.
So who causes war, daft buggers who buy their kids guns and stuff when they are young Amen.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by mondo

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

You said, "Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit."

You said, "Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence."

Then what is the sentence? Deportation after a lengthy prison sentence or worse? I haven't been in Saudi for some time, but they embrace many mundane infractions as forbidden in the the name of Islam.

The Americans on these boards will speak right up. We aren't ashamed of our record, regardless of how other people twist and spin their speculative poisons.

Your Jaywalk analogy is peculiar. Jaywalking laws are practically never enforced, but they aren't stupid. Those laws are to keep pedestrians out of vehiclar traffic to prevent them from getting killed or injured. IMO, they are good laws because I sure don't want to run over someone.

It written in the Koran in so many words to strike off the head of the infidel? It sure as heck is, and those kinds of words in the hands of the wrong people cause problems, mistrust and hatred.

In America, we currently have about 6 million muslims. We get along fine with them and Americans live side by side with them as well. Do you know we don't have any laws to prohibit those persons from carry a copy of the Koran, or owning it in our country. Do you know they actually enjoy all the freedoms of being an American, freedom of speech, freedom to worship as they please, freedom to evangelize other Americans. All things that are forbidden in Muslim dominated middle east countries.

I agree that so-called Muslim extremists are not intune with any religion. They use religion to further their agenda of hatred and murder. They justify their works on the basis of faith, but we all know it's a lie. The media all over the world prefers to use words that apply to religion, because it makes better press. Intelligent people know that, but those ignorant and deceived people that are strapping on those bombs and blowing themselves up don't get it.

Have you read about any vehement denials from Muslim clerics and leaders of those persons discouraging suicide attacks? I don't read of them trying to do anything about it.

An excerpt from PBS frontline:

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region --
not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America.

Here is video from PBS..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/video.html

------------------------------------------------

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by mondo

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.