Target visibility

[zapatista]

interesting thread !

the very poor object visibility (planes, ground vehicles, etc..) in the original il2 was its single biggest downfall as a "simulator" of a ww2 pilot experience. you simply couldnt see objects at their correct distances (compared to RL and ww2 pilot accounts), resulting in us flying in a mini-bubble of situational awareness (approx 30% of normal visibility, as if the pilot we represent was severely myopic)

i had high hopes this would be addressed in BoB as a matter of priority, and during the last few years before release oleg stated several times this had been addressed for BoB (there have been lengthy threads on this over the years in the main il2 forums). in pre release BoB beta video's bomber/fighter visibility seemed to have significantly improved, its worrying to hear from current users the old same visibility problem is back again in BoB/CoD and the old frustrations resurface.there is no excuse why this cant be sorted out in a modern sim/game in 2011

i expect that if a rational logical argument (based on facts, such as those presented so far in this thread) can be made to luthier, he will address this (once the immediate "playability bugs" issue is solved, which is hopefully with the next gfx engine rework to be released in the next few weeks). object visibility is a critical issue to get right, if BoB/CoD is going to make any claims to being the simulator it was intended to be. 80% of engagements rely on correct spotting, tracking and identifying of planes/vehicles AT THE RIGHT HISTORICAL VISIBILITY DISTANCES, if luthier and Co cant get this right we might as well all go home and not bother imho. solving some of the main issues isnt that complex either

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

There's got to be a way for the game to grab your monitor size and resolution from Windows device manager.

exactemoundo ! give the man a cigar

this is one of the very basic things to get right at the start of this type discussion. there are some very simple things that can be done to get correct "object visibility". and at the heart of this is the fact that to start out with, objects need to be displayed at their CORRECT SIZES ! the BoB sim is already programmed to do this (il2 had some object size discrepancies, but the same principle was valid), the problem is that most users use the incorrect FoV setting as "normal" view (because they have small monitors and want to see "more") and somehow still expect object sizes to be correct (wide view and zoom view imho are only intended to be used for brief moments to make up for the fact we sit behind a single monitor in our living rooms, rather then in a cockpit with +/- 270 degree visibility all around us, allowing us some way to partially try and represent what a real pilot could see/do).

point 1: "normal view" (which in the old il2 was set to 70 FoV, which is only "normal" if you had a 30' monitor), should be set to represent the monitor size in front of you, and the number of degree's it occupies of your field of view (FoV). for my 27' lcd this is about 50 FoV, if you have a 22' it might be 35 FoV, and if you have a 30' monitor it could be 70 FoV. there is a simple formulae that allows you to calculate this for your monitor size.

note: several older games already do exactly that during initial installation setup. it asks you to enter data for your monitor size and resolution, that is all that is needed. nothing needs to be "calculated" from that point, no code modification or complex new programing anything, just let the game set the right "normal" FoV for your monitor size at the start !

your wide view can still be set to 90 FoV (allowing you to snap to it during close combat to improve SA briefly), and when aiming at a specific point of an enemy target you could briefly snap to a more zoomed view to improve gun accuracy. but most of the time people would be able to fly in their correct "normal view" for their monitor sizes and see objects in their correct sizes, and have the right visibility of distant objects (some of the more distant objects will need "visibility enhancements" that allow them to be spotted at the right distances if required (types of solutions for this is a side discussion)

note 2: some people will find this "correct FoV" to narrow because they have a small monitor, and nothing should prevent them from reassigning a new choosen FoV for their normal setting, but they then shouldnt complain that when using 70 FoV on a monitor that normally only should use 45 FoV will shrink all onscreen objects and make distant objects nearly impossible to see (because you just zoomed out by 2x by setting an artificially large FoV to gain peripheral vision).

note 3: there were a few flightsim games in the late 1990's which gave you a wider FoV on a small screen and compensated for the shrinking objects by artificially enlarging them, allowing you to see objects in their closer-to-correct sizes while using a wider FoV. this had an odd effect since more objects had to be squeezed onscreen, and it is probably to complex to implement for BoB/CoD with al the other cpu/gpu loads

conclusion: if at least have all people start in this discussion with their correct FoV's for monitor sizes, and then look at the distant-object-visibility problem again to see what kind of "visual enhancements" are needed to keep these objects visible at the right distances, then imho we are on the right track from the beginning.failing that you start with a distorted view of reality, and fail to use what is already possible/intended to correct the visibility issue. keep in mind many of us (if BoB lives up to expectations) will soon add a 2e or even 3e monitor to our main screen for gaming (24' lcd's are down to 200 or 300 $ now, and the future of simulation is in multi monitor setups)

note: the fact we are trying to represent on a lcd monitor in 2011 what an individual can see with the naked unaided eye from a cockpit, means that having correct object size on the screen might not be enough to make it correctly visible onscreen as it would be in real life, eg e few extra or darker pixels could be added to these different distant objects (no idea if this is a simple task, but all it might need is for the smallest LoD models to be altered and made artificially more visible, making "right visibility" a priority over "right color and shape"

Originally Posted by ZaltysZ

If you talk about real life scale, then you also need to know distance from observer to screen for this to work. Windows device manager does not know that.

not true

for most flatscreen lcd's from 19' to about 27' the correct viewing distance is about an arms lengths away from the viewers eyes (video geeks have very straight forward methods to determine correct viewing distances for screes/tv's/projectors etc, plenty of info available on that and its pretty simple). for ex most 30' monitors significantly go up in resolution and have smaller pixel sizes, allowing the viewer to sit closer. larger then 30' usually means the person is using a lcd tv (which have lower resolutions and larger pixels), so the viewer usually should/would sit a little further away then the average pc monitor (or the blockyness of the onscreen image would degrade what you see)