Mustang accident

[Madfish]

You know, I'm trying to defend you here and also trying to defend the victims which surely DIDN'T want this to happen. But you're making it very hard... even for me. Why?

1) stopping the race isn't a middle ground
2) there are ALWAYS ways to improve
3) red bull didn't stop the series - they paused it in 2011 to make room for technological improvements, eventually even some of which I mentioned
4) there is no reno and anti-reno people. It's only you and those other "pro" faction freaks are so crazy about this. The rest of us most definately want to keep air sport alive but also make sure it's safe I believe.

So what's so hard to agree on about? I believe what Red Bull did was is the right thing to do. And they WILL re-open the series make no mistake about that.
Reno should do the same for sure. But killing the series would just be wrong.

[TomcatViP]

Yeah and let's stop all the running races as it claims to many ankles per seconds !

Originally Posted by Madfish

And they WILL re-open the series make no mistake about that.

They're flying high performance aircraft close to the ground. There is simply no way to make that safe. If they restart it's only because they decided to toss the dice.

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

Let me know when you find a source that says there are 46 races at Reno every day. Until then you're not using more precise data than mine, you're pulling data out of your butt.

BINGO! which is exactly what you do every time you say there would be 400 deaths per year in F1 if the death rate was the same, or any of your other arbitrary multiplications. At least my method takes into account the existence of extra data which would be necessary to make meaningful comparisons to other dangerous activities. How about you let me know when you find a source that states that in 7-10 days at Reno they have only a few hours of racing (therefore being comparable to 1 race in F1) until then, well, like you said...

Pylon racing is dangerous due to the speed and low altitude, but neither of these things can be compromised without destroying the event, like has happened in F1. Things could be made safer but only to a point. You could move the spectator stands a mile back, but then, at 500mph an aircraft will cover that distance in under 15 seconds. In F1 after several particularly bad years regarding fatal accidents, the drivers got together to force the teams and tracks to provide for their safety, started boycotting races deemed too dangerous etc. Until the pilots who race at Reno start feeling seriously worried for their own safety and therefore stop racing out of a healthy desire to remain alive, no-one has any right to tell them to stop what they do because it is too dangerous - they know the dangers and they accept it, they are not demanding that anyone else subject themselves to it. The same goes for the spectators. Nobody in their right mind wants to see people hurt or killed for love of their sport, and maybe as a result of this some people will decide not to attend in the future for safety reasons. That is their choice and I fully support them. But if they still want to watch? that is their choice and I support them in that too, to want to deny them is some sort of authoritarian ego thing I find particularly repulsive. Part of what is wrong with our culture today. Perhaps you were bullied at school and now you'd like to get your own back?

@Madfish - The Red Bull races are a very sanitized form of air racing with as many safety controls as you can think of, like F1 where safety has been taken to the extreme that it has utterly destroyed the sport. There must be as you say some middle ground, but this comes with a price, and folks like David need to remember that absolutely nothing can be made perfectly safe, least of all extreme motor sports. Anyway in terms of safety, how about - armored spectator stands - ejector seats and parachutes as standard?

P.S. I know I said I'd stop, but since David is so vehement I am again compelled to defend my position.

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by Madfish

The "pro" fraction that always repeats the same childish insults and arguments is a bit annoying though. The spectators knew the risk? Maybe. But did they go there to die? No. All you hear on the videos is "oh my god" and other stuff - not "cool, a plane just crashed and killed a few people."
What you say there is without any respect for the pilots and people.

Also, regarding the "we knew the risk" thing. Yeah, knowing risks is all fine but if the risks are too big then it's called a suicide attempt or an attempted murder. Because, seriously, an air show can't just say: hey, we know the chances of an accident are very high so just get used to eventually ending up dead. That's completely rubbish.

Firstly, when and where did I (being "pro" as you put it) fail to respect or ever insult the pilots or spectators? I think you'll find its the "con" group that is doing that by implying that they are stupid/mindless/unable to understand danger. I might add that you have insulted me twice now with your statements against my childish point view, whereas I have tried to remain as objective as possible whilst being bombarded by the over zealous 'People should be forced to remain safe for their own good' camp. Nothing can be made perfectly safe. Mundane activities can nearly be made almost perfectly safe but extreme sports will always carry a significant risk. Make it safer by all means but prepare for the fact that at some point in the future, an accident will happen and more people will be hurt/killed no matter what controls you put on it, apart from total ban. There is an argument for increasing safety measures at Reno. There is an argument to make sure that attendees be made fully aware of the possibly lethal outcomes. But to cry out 'ban! ban! ban!' without any real knowledge of the sport smacks of being jealous that some folks are a bit less risk averse and are able to have fun that you'll never be able to have yourself. Ye GADS! some people jump off mountains in a flying squirrel suit. Others smoke cigarettes at 60 a day. We all gotta go sometime, somehow.

Secondly, If I am 'pro' anything it is not Reno air racing or any particular activity, I am pro choice, pro freedom, and pro accepting responsibility for my own actions and decisions and not leaving it up to anyone else to tell me I can't/shouldn't, especially when it affects them not at all. In my view the chances of an accident at Reno involving spectators are not that high - 1 in 48 (+- 2%) though I can understand that people might find this too high and I am not opposed to trying to reduce this chance, but at the present moment, if you can't stand the heat...

[Helrza]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

I've seen tape of the crash from several angles. There was lots of screaming, but not a single hallelujah, and no one sounded happy.

Sorry david, but that was actually an insight on how i would feel if i was in the firing line. Wasnt an implication that that is what happened to these ppl. But i can bet on your life in their obituaries/ eulogy, some would have had something metioned in it "He/she died doin what they loved" or some blah blah like that.

But ive noticed one thing about that statement and anothers of yours... your saying it should be stopped because of this bad "happening"..... but since youve watched it across several angle... and im assuming youve watched them several times, i get the feeling you might have actually enjoyed watching it happen... over, and over... and over again. Which is human nature i think. a part of us all enjoy watching things like this lol.

But yes, it is tragic, and inevitably, it was bound to happen one day, might not have been this year, maybe not in the next decade, the race could be into its 100th year and it could have happened. But really, all parties know the risks involved going to a spectacle like this, or any others.

so why should it be stopped?

If each event/ thing was to be stopped becuase of a few fatalities there would be no motor racing, no bike racing, no flights to other countries, no taking a cruise ship to other countries, no driving you car down the street for groceries.. and etc etc etc. Would be a very boring world i must say.

These days i get the feeling that the world has gone way too soft. In the old days it would have been "thats horrible", "OMG", "Terrible, terrible, terrible.... Soooo ill cya next week for the next race?".



Back to the topic at hand (well the interesting part with ppl actually having a constructive DISCUSSION), i noticed an earlier post someone saying about if the pilot had blacked out, you woulda seen him slumped over the controls. My thoughts about this would be you wouldnt see him at all, a massive amount of force such as 10G would have pushed him back and down into his seat?

Originally Posted by Sammi79

BINGO! which is exactly what you do every time you say there would be 400 deaths per year in F1 if the death rate was the same, or any of your other arbitrary multiplications. At least my method takes into account the existence of extra data which would be necessary to make meaningful comparisons to other dangerous activities. How about you let me know when you find a source that states that in 7-10 days at Reno they have only a few hours of racing (therefore being comparable to 1 race in F1) until then, well, like you said...

You didn't make use of additional data, you made $@!^ up. My comparison is perfectly valid. One F1 event is approximately equivalent to 1 Reno event. The timespan is roughly the same. You certainly have not demonstrated otherwise.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

Pylon racing is dangerous due to the speed and low altitude, but neither of these things can be compromised without destroying the event, like has happened in F1.

Then they should not be doing it.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

That is their choice and I fully support them. But if they still want to watch? that is their choice and I support them in that too, to want to deny them is some sort of authoritarian ego thing I find particularly repulsive. Part of what is wrong with our culture today. Perhaps you were bullied at school and now you'd like to get your own back?

People don't get to act recklessly just because they want to. I suspect the good folks at Reno are going to be reminded of that when they see their insurance rates next year.

It's not like there is a small problem here. The death rate at Reno is appalling.

Originally Posted by Helrza

Sorry david, but that was actually an insight on how i would feel if i was in the firing line. Wasnt an implication that that is what happened to these ppl. But i can bet on your life in their obituaries/ eulogy, some would have had something metioned in it "He/she died doin what they loved" or some blah blah like that.

But ive noticed one thing about that statement and anothers of yours... your saying it should be stopped because of this bad "happening"..... but since youve watched it across several angle... and im assuming youve watched them several times, i get the feeling you might have actually enjoyed watching it happen... over, and over... and over again. Which is human nature i think. a part of us all enjoy watching things like this lol.

I watched each tape once because I wanted to see what happened. Several years ago a good friend of mine was killed in an air show crash. His young child and wife were watching at the time. I also watched the tape of that once. Do you think I enjoyed it?

Originally Posted by Helrza

But yes, it is tragic, and inevitably, it was bound to happen one day, might not have been this year, maybe not in the next decade, the race could be into its 100th year and it could have happened. But really, all parties know the risks involved going to a spectacle like this, or any others.

Actually, the parties clearly don't know the risks involved. But they're going to find out when the next insurance bill shows up.

so why should it be stopped?

Because it's recklessly dangerous.

If each event/ thing was to be stopped becuase of a few fatalities there would be no motor racing, no bike racing, no flights to other countries, no taking a cruise ship to other countries, no driving you car down the street for groceries.. and etc etc etc. Would be a very boring world i must say.

This isn't "a few fatalities", this is 2 dead for every 5 events. That is appalling.

These days i get the feeling that the world has gone way too soft. In the old days it would have been "thats horrible", "OMG", "Terrible, terrible, terrible.... Soooo ill cya next week for the next race?".

Yes, that's what they used to do in auto racing, until they realized that it was moronic and they stopped the carnage.

Originally Posted by Sammi79

if you can't stand the heat...

...you are forced to pay a massive insurance bill if you want to continue the carnage.

[JG52Krupi]

When Reno 2012 starts I will revive this thread to mock you....

In the mean time...







Choose one.