water cannon

[Hood]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

You know, the more I read of this thread the happier I am that the founders of my country had the forsight to boot HM Troops and Government back across the Atlantic.

I am also quite amused that that gun haters in this thread think that those of us that enjoy our firearms hobby are paranoid. Quite a bit of transferance there I'd say.

Foresight? Independence was fought because of self interest as they didn't want to pay tax (damn'd right I say) and most European countries decided to help them out.

Bash the UK if you want, but I think anyone in the USA that wants to do that should be prepared for the USA to be bashed in return. That gets away from the purpose of this thread, which is for Stern to be self righteous and everyone else to take shots at him whether rightly or wrongly.

As for gun haters, I'm not sure that anyone here hates guns. They hate what they do, but who wouldn't. There is also a fundamental difference in philosophies between the UK and other countries, including the UK, and that is all.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by Pudfark

Well stated ElAurens....

It is amusing to me that the U.S. took the exact opposite approach to gun ownership/possession two hundred plus years ago....

The very folks that founded the U.S. government, chose to empower the people and not themselves....

The very rights mentioned in the posts made in this thread....were earned, with an armed populace...be it an army, militia or a mob. The future retention of those rights? Will be retained with the same.... It seems to be a bit late for the Brits and others... I have a right to a ballot and a bullet. Either way, I get to vote... One way is by permission...the other by right.

You really think individual US citizens are empowered?

How?

As I read it the right to bear arms is that so you can help defend the nation, not yourself.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

You call me petty !

.
First I didn't call you petty, the point was petty.
Second, if you think that's a petty difference, you don't get the whole point of my argument (that though I had figured out long ago..).

So what? I don't really trust them either.

yes, but they're the ones with the stick. Are you gonna wave your voting card when they decide for you once again?

My lot? Seriously? move. Just leave.

I really can't, but people like you make this place less pleasant than what it actually is. Mine was a dickish answer to a dickish statement.

No, I don't want one.

agreed, but just for the sake of science, to see how easy it is to get one.

Ignorance of what? It boils down to what you think is 'good reason' to own a Handgun or Semi Automatic. I can't think of one.

I can't think of a good reason to snort cocaine or smoke weed, still, other people enjoy doing it.

Pot, kettle? Seriously, you're a hypocrite. We're a herd are we/ simply because we disagree, you know nothing about me, you're making assumptions.

instead of pondering the opinion of a foreigner, who might see things from a different perspective, all you can do is taking it personally like I'm talking to you, relax.

What about the right to live in a country with tough gun laws?
Gun owners right more important than non gun owners are they?

I haven't asked for less tough laws, just for laws that make sense. With stricter (or shall I say, more effective) gun laws and semiauto and pistols we all win.

Now you're just talking rubbish, find me one single quote from anyone in a position of power in the UK that says binge drinking is safe. I know for a fact that guns are dangerous. So what you've just said is the exact opposite of what is clearly the truth, you'll say anything to justify your position.
What pretentious moral values are you talking about?

sure, but what are they doing to stop or reduce it? Nothing.. let me think why, maybe cos too many people like it, or maybe cos the Government gets a lot of revenue off the selling of alcohol and tobacco..
Everything has a dangerous potential, even your kitchen knives, your car.. shall we forbid everything that is potentially dangerous?

Yet another irrelevant, meandering paragraph.

Fact - Semi Automatics were banned in this country because a gun owner, a gun club member, walked through a rural town and shot people. Handguns were banned because a gun owner went into a school and killed children.

wrong again.

Your only relevant point seems to be that a having a hobby is a good enough reason to own a lethal weapon. I don't think it is. Ok?

no, you're looking at the shallow end me thinks. It's beyond that, but if you're happy to think otherwise..

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by Hood

You really think individual US citizens are empowered?

How?

As I read it the right to bear arms is that so you can help defend the nation, not yourself.

WONG! This is my major Let me set you straight. That is exactly its intent - to defend yourself. Since you play IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (of I assume you do) it should be pretty easy for you to answer - who in history during this period of time this game is set - was a tyrant that was elected to office by a free society?

The constitution / bill of rights is a charter if negative liberties aimed squarely at the government with maximum freedom to the individual - written in such a way as to say what the government will NOT do for you. NOT what it will do for you.

The second amendment is not only to defend the nation from foreign aggression. But domestic and the government from becoming tyrannical.

The founders specifically meant that sometimes when the people don't get their way at the ballot box, there has to be another method to make change.

Thus the second amendment remedy was born.

This is from the federalist papers.

James Madison wrote "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."

[brando]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

1) a certain politically correct layer of society pushed for it, fed by ignorance.
2) Tories couldn't go for an unpopular choice in front of the horror, besides an unarmed country is easier to control.
3) people don't understand their rights and the importance of defending them.

this could only happen in a country like the UK, where there are moral double standards (a gun is dangerous! Binge drinking is safe!) and pretentious moral values.. but above all where people are sheep enough to be imposed things without saying anything.

And you call me a delusional bigot? You're priceless.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by brando

And you call me a delusional bigot? You're priceless.

I'm still talking facts here man, get your facts right then tell me about yours..

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
First I didn't call you petty, the point was petty.
Second, if you think that's a petty difference, you don't get the whole point of my argument (that though I had figured out long ago..).

Are we arguing about the way we're arguing here? You know exactly what I meant when I said handgun, you're just deflecting the argument again.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
yes, but they're the ones with the stick. Are you gonna wave your voting card when they decide for you once again?

No, I just don't vote, they're all the same. I just get on with my life. I can't think of anything that I've wanted to do in my entire life that the govenrment stopped me from doing. They are so far removed from rel life that it's poinltess bothering with them.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
I really can't, but people like you make this place less pleasant than what it actually is. Mine was a dickish answer to a dickish statement.

People like me? WTF? Who do you think you are?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

I can't think of a good reason to snort cocaine or smoke weed, still, other people enjoy doing it.

Jeez, we're onto drugs now are we? Why? What are you going on about?
G U N S. Remember?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

instead of pondering the opinion of a foreigner, who might see things from a different perspective, all you can do is taking it personally like I'm talking to you, relax.

Wher have I resorted to calling you ignorant, dickish, a sheep, questioned your intelligence? I haven't. I've stuck to my side of the argument, you meanwhile go from one random analogy to another. I'm not taking this personally AT ALL. You're the one getting personal. You're the one slagging off my country of birth, have I mentioned Italy? Not once.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

I haven't asked for less tough laws, just for laws that make sense. With stricter (or shall I say, more effective) gun laws and semiauto and pistols we all win.

Except me? I don't want handguns to be legal in the UK. Or Semi Automatics.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

sure, but what are they doing to stop or reduce it? Nothing.. let me think why, maybe cos too many people like it, or maybe cos the Government gets a lot of revenue off the selling of alcohol and tobacco..
Everything has a dangerous potential, even your kitchen knives, your car.. shall we forbid everything that is potentially dangerous?

They put the price up.

No, forbiding potentially dangerous things would be stupid, I'm talking about lethal wepons, expilcitly - firearms - they are not the same thing - Another smokescreen.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

wrong again.

no, you're looking at the shallow end me thinks. It's beyond that, but if you're happy to think otherwise..

Stop telling me how I'm thinking, I am a grown up, I can make my own mind up about things. I'll say it again - I don't think a hobby is a good enough reason to lobby for lifting the current bans. Time may well change this opinion, If in the future there becomes a real need for gun ownership, you know, when the oil runs out, or food, and you really would need to protect yourself then, absolutley, get me a gun. But not now, I like having an unarmed (in the main) police force, they aren't as cocky. You arm the population and the poilce arm themselves too and so do more of the criminals. Less than 40 people were killed by guns in the UK last year, that's pretty good for a nation of drunken benifit claimers. I want it to be the hardest thing you can apply for a licence for. Truth is the Brits like a good old fashioned drunken punch up more than a pussies with guns shootout. (I don't mean people with guns are pussies, I mean a pussy with a gun, someone you know you'd beat to a pulp if he wasn't armed)

[Pudfark]

Originally Posted by Hood

You really think individual US citizens are empowered?

How?

As I read it the right to bear arms is that so you can help defend the nation, not yourself.

Some citizens here are empowered. I am one of them.
How?
I take responsibility. When confronted with any type of bad folks who demonstrate a desire to steal, destroy or threaten my family, neighbors, myself or our property. I have the ability to take the appropriate action. I don't have to wait hours for the police to apologize and take a report. The really neat responsible part of this? It's legal here.

Now for that "nation, not yourself" part....when, I read that...I giggled.
At you.
Try this on for size?
If you can't defend yourself first, how can you defend your nation?

[Hunden]

Sternjaeger II I wouldn't put to much more energy into this, there isn't much more you can say to convince people who have their minds made up. I'm all for the next guy not having a gun. Just don't try to take mine because you know us paranoid type.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by Pudfark

Some citizens here are empowered. I am one of them.
How?
I take responsibility. When confronted with any type of bad folks who demonstrate a desire to steal, destroy or threaten my family, neighbors, myself or our property. I have the ability to take the appropriate action. I don't have to wait hours for the police to apologize and take a report. The really neat responsible part of this? It's legal here.

Now for that "nation, not yourself" part....when, I read that...I giggled.
At you.
Try this on for size?
If you can't defend yourself first, how can you defend your nation?

You take responsibility? I presume you have a cape to twirl whilst you dish out punishment in your vigilante alter ego?

I presume that you know that the "right to bear arms" has different interpretations, and that it was formulated in the late 18th century? By people who had to support the idea of armed insurrection as that is what they had just done?

I don't have to defend my nation as my government does that on my behalf, and I trust them to do so. Owning a gun wouldn't help me defuse an IED in Afghanistan, or stop a terrorist attack. How do you defend your nation by owning a gun? Owning a gun doesn't empower you to do anything at all; that's what the rule of law does.

It really doesn't bother me that the USA allows the right to bear arms. It's your country and your politicians and if you vote for them and they let you have what you want then that's fine. If you disagree with your government by all means form a militia and march on Washington. It'll make great TV whilst it lasts.

However, don't criticise another country's peoples and laws just because you do not agree with them. If you're not a citizen then it's really none of your business. That goes for the whole guns are great/bad argument.

Giggle away.