water cannon

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

ok, so can you tell me off the top of your head what are the procedures and rules in act at the moment to obtain a gun license, what kind of guns you can get and what kind of licenses are out there? I'm afraid that the bigot here is you, who can't think of a suitable solution just cos you have no interest or are afraid of something, so you wipe it off.

I'm happy with the current situation, ie: Total ban on Handguns and Semi Automatics.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

decoys? I'm just giving parallel examples that can help you see things without the "bad firearms!" blindfold..

I have never once in this discussion said that guns are bad or good, it's you who keeps making this about good and bad, not me.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

there we go, another example of not actually reading my posts.. I have NEVER said RELAX gun laws, just make them more adequate and you won't need to prohibit only certain guns..

More adequate? You mean lift the ban on Handguns and Semi's? That's relaxing in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

As for the 3 massacres (since WW2) that you mentioned, I think they're a drop in an ocean of murder and violence that we're surrounded by, the firearms became the scapegoat, but the responsibility was in the institutions that deemed that people suitable for gun detention.

The only people responsible were the shooters, they all had gun licences, so they passed the criteria at the time. The reason you can't own a semi automatic is Michael Ryan. The reason you can't own a handgun is Thomas Hamilton. Not because the system failed, they failed, as gun owners. You want a nanny state whilst not wanting nanny state, if they are banned there is no grey area.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know when I mentioned the fact that if you're ignorant on the topic you can't understand? The gun club social reality I was talking about is a perfect example of how a simple thing like attending such clubs can be a solution to spot loonies (like it happens in Switzerland), but you can't understand this obviously unless you ever frequented one.

The obvious soultion here is that you move to Switzerland.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

oh, for the love of... ok, again..

1) Whoever wants to get a license should have a clean penal record (him and everybody in his close family and/or living in the same household).
2) You need a series of psychological tests to assess whether you are at risk of developing socio-path behaviour. People with childhood traumatic experiences or any other condition shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.
3) There should be different levels of gun holding licenses (according to the firearm possessed), each coming with mandatory training session and responsibility of safe storage
4) You will need to frequent your local gun club and integrate in social activities, i.e. events, competitions, open days etc..
5) the police can come and check at anytime that you have everything stored safely
6) you will do recurrent tests or short visits to local doctors who can check on your psychological status.

Er, isn't that pretty much the current UK situation? We have Shotgun licences, and seperate firearms licences, you have to have your medical records checked, you have to have safe storage, you have to be a member of a gun club or designate the land where the guns will be used.

As for ongoing mental health checks, very, very hard to seperate the 'loonies'
as you call them from the responsible gun owners (if responsible gun owner isn't an oxy-moron)

Fact is all you have to do is show 'good reason' and as far as I'm concerned, looking a them, or firing them at weekends isn't a good enough reason to own a handgun or a semi, thankfully this also appears to be the stance taken inthe UK towards that type of gun ownership.

You want to collect or shoot a handgun / Semi / Machine gun in the UK?
You can't, why? Because people with legally held weapons went on a killing spree. We banned them because of legal gun owners, not criminals with guns. Like I said if you don't like it, move to Switzerland.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

I'm happy with the current situation, ie: Total ban on Handguns and Semi Automatics.

that is not even correct, you can still own muzzle loading guns and semiauto rimfire. Get your facts straight.

I have never once in this discussion said that guns are bad or good, it's you who keeps making this about good and bad, not me.

this is a petty point to be honest..

More adequate? You mean lift the ban on Handguns and Semi's? That's relaxing in my opinion.

if there was no adequate adapting of the laws yes, but this is not what my point was.

The only people responsible were the shooters, they all had gun licences, so they passed the criteria at the time. The reason you can't own a semi automatic is Michael Ryan. The reason you can't own a handgun is Thomas Hamilton. Not because the system failed, they failed, as gun owners. You want a nanny state whilst not wanting nanny state, if they are banned there is no grey area.

No, if you read the law, the people that appoint such licenses can be as responsible as the perpetrators of the crime. The ultimate and biggest responsibility is with the perps of course, but the institutions are responsible (because of their neglect despite the repeated reports) too.

This is probably the biggest nanny state on the planet, your Government doesn't trust you at all.

The obvious soultion here is that you move to Switzerland.

I wish I could, but I have to be here because of the specialised work that your lot can't do, and to pay for the welfare bunch that can't do anything else but claim their rights

Er, isn't that pretty much the current UK situation? We have Shotgun licences, and seperate firearms licences, you have to have your medical records checked, you have to have safe storage, you have to be a member of a gun club or designate the land where the guns will be used.

it's similar, but not the same, again, since you're so worried about the dangers of gun ownership, try and apply to get a license and see how actually easy it is.

As for ongoing mental health checks, very, very hard to seperate the 'loonies'
as you call them from the responsible gun owners (if responsible gun owner isn't an oxy-moron)

yeah, I suppose that your PhD in Psychology helped you giving a professional opinion on the matter.. your alleged funny punchline shows once again your ignorance on the subject. You think of a gun owner as it was a ticking bomb..

Fact is all you have to do is show 'good reason' and as far as I'm concerned, looking a them, or firing them at weekends isn't a good enough reason to own a handgun or a semi, thankfully this also appears to be the stance taken inthe UK towards that type of gun ownership.

yeah, that's your opinion, but then again it's the typical approach you have here, condescending and patronising towards everything that doesn't follow the herd.

You want to collect or shoot a handgun / Semi / Machine gun in the UK?
You can't, why? Because people with legally held weapons went on a killing spree. We banned them because of legal gun owners, not criminals with guns. Like I said if you don't like it, move to Switzerland.

no, you can't because of a combination of factors:
1) a certain politically correct layer of society pushed for it, fed by ignorance.
2) Tories couldn't go for an unpopular choice in front of the horror, besides an unarmed country is easier to control.
3) people don't understand their rights and the importance of defending them.

this could only happen in a country like the UK, where there are moral double standards (a gun is dangerous! Binge drinking is safe!) and pretentious moral values.. but above all where people are sheep enough to be imposed things without saying anything.

A little example for you: in the office where I work the new management (which is earning salaries two to 3 times higher than the previous) has decided to remove all the rubbish bins from the offices "to promote recycling" they said, but in reality they did it to cut costs. Instead of complaining and pointing the obvious (i.e. why is the new CEO earning two and a half times the salary of this country's Prime Minister?!), they just comply and waste time walking back and forth to the kitchen area to use the bins there..

A few months back they proposed to close the bars in our offices, again "to cut costs", and in front of the menace of no booze over lunch break there have been petitions, discussions and what not..

(drunken) sheep, nothing more, nothing less.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

that is not even correct, you can still own muzzle loading guns and semiauto rimfire. Get your facts straight.

You call me petty !

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

No, if you read the law, the people that appoint such licenses can be as responsible as the perpetrators of the crime. The ultimate and biggest responsibility is with the perps of course, but the institutions are responsible (because of their neglect despite the repeated reports) too.

This is probably the biggest nanny state on the planet, your Government doesn't trust you at all.

So what? I don't really trust them either.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I wish I could, but I have to be here because of the specialised work that your lot can't do, and to pay for the welfare bunch that can't do anything else but claim their rights

My lot? Seriously? move. Just leave.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

it's similar, but not the same, again, since you're so worried about the dangers of gun ownership, try and apply to get a license and see how actually easy it is.

No, I don't want one.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yeah, I suppose that your PhD in Psychology helped you giving a professional opinion on the matter.. your alleged funny punchline shows once again your ignorance on the subject. You think of a gun owner as it was a ticking bomb..

Ignorance of what? It boils down to what you think is 'good reason' to own a Handgun or Semi Automatic. I can't think of one.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yeah, that's your opinion, but then again it's the typical approach you have here, condescending and patronising towards everything that doesn't follow the herd.

Pot, kettle? Seriously, you're a hypocrite. We're a herd are we/ simply because we disagree, you know nothing about me, you're making assumptions.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

no, you can't because of a combination of factors:
1) a certain politically correct layer of society pushed for it, fed by ignorance.
2) Tories couldn't go for an unpopular choice in front of the horror, besides an unarmed country is easier to control.
3) people don't understand their rights and the importance of defending them.

What about the right to live in a country with tough gun laws?
Gun owners right more important than non gun owners are they?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

this could only happen in a country like the UK, where there are moral double standards (a gun is dangerous! Binge drinking is safe!) and pretentious moral values.. but above all where people are sheep enough to be imposed things without saying anything.

Now you're just talking rubbish, find me one single quote from anyone in a position of power in the UK that says binge drinking is safe. I know for a fact that guns are dangerous. So what you've just said is the exact opposite of what is clearly the truth, you'll say anything to justify your position.
What pretentious moral values are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

A little example for you: in the office where I work the new management (which is earning salaries two to 3 times higher than the previous) has decided to remove all the rubbish bins from the offices "to promote recycling" they said, but in reality they did it to cut costs. Instead of complaining and pointing the obvious (i.e. why is the new CEO earning two and a half times the salary of this country's Prime Minister?!), they just comply and waste time walking back and forth to the kitchen area to use the bins there..

A few months back they proposed to close the bars in our offices, again "to cut costs", and in front of the menace of no booze over lunch break there have been petitions, discussions and what not..

(drunken) sheep, nothing more, nothing less.

Yet another irrelevant, meandering paragraph.

Fact - Semi Automatics were banned in this country because a gun owner, a gun club member, walked through a rural town and shot people. Handguns were banned because a gun owner went into a school and killed children.

Your only relevant point seems to be that a having a hobby is a good enough reason to own a lethal weapon. I don't think it is. Ok?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

You call me petty !

.
First I didn't call you petty, the point was petty.
Second, if you think that's a petty difference, you don't get the whole point of my argument (that though I had figured out long ago..).

So what? I don't really trust them either.

yes, but they're the ones with the stick. Are you gonna wave your voting card when they decide for you once again?

My lot? Seriously? move. Just leave.

I really can't, but people like you make this place less pleasant than what it actually is. Mine was a dickish answer to a dickish statement.

No, I don't want one.

agreed, but just for the sake of science, to see how easy it is to get one.

Ignorance of what? It boils down to what you think is 'good reason' to own a Handgun or Semi Automatic. I can't think of one.

I can't think of a good reason to snort cocaine or smoke weed, still, other people enjoy doing it.

Pot, kettle? Seriously, you're a hypocrite. We're a herd are we/ simply because we disagree, you know nothing about me, you're making assumptions.

instead of pondering the opinion of a foreigner, who might see things from a different perspective, all you can do is taking it personally like I'm talking to you, relax.

What about the right to live in a country with tough gun laws?
Gun owners right more important than non gun owners are they?

I haven't asked for less tough laws, just for laws that make sense. With stricter (or shall I say, more effective) gun laws and semiauto and pistols we all win.

Now you're just talking rubbish, find me one single quote from anyone in a position of power in the UK that says binge drinking is safe. I know for a fact that guns are dangerous. So what you've just said is the exact opposite of what is clearly the truth, you'll say anything to justify your position.
What pretentious moral values are you talking about?

sure, but what are they doing to stop or reduce it? Nothing.. let me think why, maybe cos too many people like it, or maybe cos the Government gets a lot of revenue off the selling of alcohol and tobacco..
Everything has a dangerous potential, even your kitchen knives, your car.. shall we forbid everything that is potentially dangerous?

Yet another irrelevant, meandering paragraph.

Fact - Semi Automatics were banned in this country because a gun owner, a gun club member, walked through a rural town and shot people. Handguns were banned because a gun owner went into a school and killed children.

wrong again.

Your only relevant point seems to be that a having a hobby is a good enough reason to own a lethal weapon. I don't think it is. Ok?

no, you're looking at the shallow end me thinks. It's beyond that, but if you're happy to think otherwise..

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
First I didn't call you petty, the point was petty.
Second, if you think that's a petty difference, you don't get the whole point of my argument (that though I had figured out long ago..).

Are we arguing about the way we're arguing here? You know exactly what I meant when I said handgun, you're just deflecting the argument again.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
yes, but they're the ones with the stick. Are you gonna wave your voting card when they decide for you once again?

No, I just don't vote, they're all the same. I just get on with my life. I can't think of anything that I've wanted to do in my entire life that the govenrment stopped me from doing. They are so far removed from rel life that it's poinltess bothering with them.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.
I really can't, but people like you make this place less pleasant than what it actually is. Mine was a dickish answer to a dickish statement.

People like me? WTF? Who do you think you are?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

I can't think of a good reason to snort cocaine or smoke weed, still, other people enjoy doing it.

Jeez, we're onto drugs now are we? Why? What are you going on about?
G U N S. Remember?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

instead of pondering the opinion of a foreigner, who might see things from a different perspective, all you can do is taking it personally like I'm talking to you, relax.

Wher have I resorted to calling you ignorant, dickish, a sheep, questioned your intelligence? I haven't. I've stuck to my side of the argument, you meanwhile go from one random analogy to another. I'm not taking this personally AT ALL. You're the one getting personal. You're the one slagging off my country of birth, have I mentioned Italy? Not once.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

I haven't asked for less tough laws, just for laws that make sense. With stricter (or shall I say, more effective) gun laws and semiauto and pistols we all win.

Except me? I don't want handguns to be legal in the UK. Or Semi Automatics.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

sure, but what are they doing to stop or reduce it? Nothing.. let me think why, maybe cos too many people like it, or maybe cos the Government gets a lot of revenue off the selling of alcohol and tobacco..
Everything has a dangerous potential, even your kitchen knives, your car.. shall we forbid everything that is potentially dangerous?

They put the price up.

No, forbiding potentially dangerous things would be stupid, I'm talking about lethal wepons, expilcitly - firearms - they are not the same thing - Another smokescreen.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

.

wrong again.

no, you're looking at the shallow end me thinks. It's beyond that, but if you're happy to think otherwise..

Stop telling me how I'm thinking, I am a grown up, I can make my own mind up about things. I'll say it again - I don't think a hobby is a good enough reason to lobby for lifting the current bans. Time may well change this opinion, If in the future there becomes a real need for gun ownership, you know, when the oil runs out, or food, and you really would need to protect yourself then, absolutley, get me a gun. But not now, I like having an unarmed (in the main) police force, they aren't as cocky. You arm the population and the poilce arm themselves too and so do more of the criminals. Less than 40 people were killed by guns in the UK last year, that's pretty good for a nation of drunken benifit claimers. I want it to be the hardest thing you can apply for a licence for. Truth is the Brits like a good old fashioned drunken punch up more than a pussies with guns shootout. (I don't mean people with guns are pussies, I mean a pussy with a gun, someone you know you'd beat to a pulp if he wasn't armed)

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Are we arguing about the way we're arguing here? You know exactly what I meant when I said handgun, you're just deflecting the argument again.

now, I'm only saying that if you really want to, you can still have a handgun, muzzle loader yes, but even a revolver muzzle loader..

No, I just don't vote, they're all the same. I just get on with my life. I can't think of anything that I've wanted to do in my entire life that the govenrment stopped me from doing. They are so far removed from rel life that it's poinltess bothering with them.

and you call yourself a responsible citizen?! You don't even bother to vote "cos they're all the same" and then you get mad if I call you a sheep?

People like me? WTF? Who do you think you are?

read above, people like you, yes, who blindly vouch for their own institutions and country and don't even make an effort to make his voice count cos they're lazy.

Jeez, we're onto drugs now are we? Why? What are you going on about?
G U N S. Remember?

it's a parallel: drugs serve no purpose according to a certain part of the society, but another part (who uses them) find them enjoyable. Still, some of them are tolerated.. nonsense..

Wher have I resorted to calling you ignorant, dickish, a sheep, questioned your intelligence? I haven't. I've stuck to my side of the argument, you meanwhile go from one random analogy to another. I'm not taking this personally AT ALL. You're the one getting personal. You're the one slagging off my country of birth, have I mentioned Italy? Not once.

there's no perfect country man, but there are countries where citizens are more engaged in what's going on, and those countries work better.
Don't take it so personally, especially cos you're not that bothered about your country, since you don't vote, you just get mad if someone talks bad about it, and behave in a racist way too, inviting foreigners to leave, instead of digging your head out of the sand and listen to what people from other cultures and backgrounds have to say.

Except me? I don't want handguns to be legal in the UK. Or Semi Automatics.

yes, fine, you still haven't given valid reasons why.

They put the price up.

yeah and you're happy with that..

No, forbiding potentially dangerous things would be stupid, I'm talking about lethal wepons, expilcitly - firearms - they are not the same thing - Another smokescreen.

lethal weapons? You said that a gun is not good or bad, so why forbidding something that is not good or bad? I'd monitor the gun accessibility better, not prohibit it altogether.

Stop telling me how I'm thinking, I am a grown up, I can make my own mind up about things. I'll say it again - I don't think a hobby is a good enough reason to lobby for lifting the current bans. Time may well change this opinion, If in the future there becomes a real need for gun ownership, you know, when the oil runs out, or food, and you really would need to protect yourself then, absolutley, get me a gun. But not now, I like having an unarmed (in the main) police force, they aren't as cocky. You arm the population and the poilce arm themselves too and so do more of the criminals. Less than 40 people were killed by guns in the UK last year, that's pretty good for a nation of drunken benifit claimers. I want it to be the hardest thing you can apply for a licence for. Truth is the Brits like a good old fashioned drunken punch up more than a pussies with guns shootout. (I don't mean people with guns are pussies, I mean a pussy with a gun, someone you know you'd beat to a pulp if he wasn't armed)

I'm not telling you how you think, you know how you do it and you're convinced of what you're saying, the facts on the other hand, say otherwise. I'm not here to change your mind or whatever, I honestly don't care, but if in a potential future there will be a need to gun ownership (apocalypse, change of rules, raise of crime), you'll be late, and probably dead too.

[brando]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

1) a certain politically correct layer of society pushed for it, fed by ignorance.
2) Tories couldn't go for an unpopular choice in front of the horror, besides an unarmed country is easier to control.
3) people don't understand their rights and the importance of defending them.

this could only happen in a country like the UK, where there are moral double standards (a gun is dangerous! Binge drinking is safe!) and pretentious moral values.. but above all where people are sheep enough to be imposed things without saying anything.

And you call me a delusional bigot? You're priceless.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by brando

And you call me a delusional bigot? You're priceless.

I'm still talking facts here man, get your facts right then tell me about yours..