Historic Spitfire Mk1/1a loadout

[Moggy]

There was a major unforeseen problem with the .303 AP round. When it was tested, it could go through armour plate with no problem. However, if it struck another surface before it hit the armour plate (such as aircraft skin), the energy would dissipate quickly and not have enough energy to penetrate or even reach the armour.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

I'm sure I've got some more details of the tests somewhere.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Yeah again really appreciate this info winny,thanks.

And top info moggy,we would like to see more info if you can find it.

[Skoshi Tiger]

[QUOTE=winny;334333] Ball ammo didn't suffer from this effect (tumble) and ....QUOTE]
This is incorrect.

From WWI the british were using the MKVII round. (MKI round was used in the Boer war and although Australia was making rifles using the MVI round up to WW1 Britain had moved on to the MKVII round by the start of WWI) Why we have the MKI and MKVI (using 215gn round nosed bullets) in the sim is a bit of mystery to me unless they were using up their pre-WWI stocks?????

The MkVII .303 Ball) round is designed to tumble on impact. The copper jacketed round has a lead base and light weight aluminium tip (Sometimes substituted with wood or even compressed paper- sterilised to avoid infection of course!)

The bullets were designed this way because the round fired from the standard service rifle would only travel at about 2440fps which not quite fast enough to cause cavitation injuries comparable to Mauser splitzer rounds. So to stay within the Hauge convention rules they had to make the bullets tumble to impart thier energy to their intended targets (people), this makes them less than efficient on targets like planes.

Does anyone know why we don't have the MKVIII round in our load outs? This was slightly more powerful than the MKVII and had a more aerodynamic boat tailed round. It was developed for the Vickers Machine gun but as far as I know there wouldn't have been any problem running it through the Colt Brownings used by the RAF. In the SMLE rifles it did cause more barrel wear and it's use was discouraged.

Cheers!


http://web.archive.org/web/200807070...eapons/303.htm

[Moggy]

Originally Posted by Plt Off JRB Meaker

Yeah again really appreciate this info winny,thanks.

And top info moggy,we would like to see more info if you can find it.

Pist-N-Broke, made a very good post on the .303 ammunition, he explains it in a way I cannot. You can find his post here (#3;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...459#post271459

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Thanks mate

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Moggy

Pist-N-Broke, made a very good post on the .303 ammunition, he explains it in a way I cannot. You can find his post here (#3;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...459#post271459

Although a good general post, Pist-n-Broke has some errors in his designations of the rounds. "His Mk7" was actually B.MK VI or B.MK VIz( We hve the z round in the game which designates nitrocellulose propellant as opposed to cordite) . I don't think the B.Mk VII (very similar in design) was introduced until about '42

Try http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo07feb.htm for a discussion of Major Dixons round.

[Moggy]

If memory serves (and I admit I could be wrong), the Mk.VII was the American produced version of the Mk.VI and this was adopted because it slimlined the production methods. I believe it was being produced in 1940 but again this is off the top of my head and I could well be wrong.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Moggy

If memory serves (and I admit I could be wrong), the Mk.VII was the American produced version of the Mk.VI and this was adopted because it slimlined the production methods. I believe it was being produced in 1940 but again this is off the top of my head and I could well be wrong.

As you said the US adopted a very similar design for their .30 and 50 incendiary rounds, it didn't have the brass screw in the base like B.Mk VI round. This simpler design was copied by the British as the B.MK VII.

I didn't think it was as early as 1940 so I'ld be interested to see a reference to it.

For that '42 date I was going from wiki (dangerous I know)

"These rounds were extensively developed over the years and saw several Mark numbers. The last tracer round introduced into British service was the G Mark 8 in 1945, the last armour-piercing round was the W Mark 1Z in 1945, and the last incendiary round was the B Mark 7 in 1942. Explosive bullets were not produced in the UK after 1933 due to the relatively small amount of explosive that could be contained in the bullet, limiting their effectiveness, their role being successfully fulfilled by the use of Mark 6 and 7 incendiary bullets."

I wonder if the US were supplying the simplified projectiles under lend lease before they were given a designation by the British?

Cheers!

[Osprey]

In Al Deere's book "Nine Lives" he reports how pilots were crying out of De Wilde ammo but there wasn't enough. The Air Ministry said that incendiary tracer was just as effective in tests but pilots protested. I think their point was that they could see when they were hitting with De Wilde and the Air Ministry eventually relented. Either way, they were in very short supply of De Wilde until later in the BoB.

[Moggy]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

As you said the US adopted a very similar design for their .30 and 50 incendiary rounds, it didn't have the brass screw in the base like B.Mk VI round. This simpler design was copied by the British as the B.MK VII.

I didn't think it was as early as 1940 so I'ld be interested to see a reference to it.

For that '42 date I was going from wiki (dangerous I know)

"These rounds were extensively developed over the years and saw several Mark numbers. The last tracer round introduced into British service was the G Mark 8 in 1945, the last armour-piercing round was the W Mark 1Z in 1945, and the last incendiary round was the B Mark 7 in 1942. Explosive bullets were not produced in the UK after 1933 due to the relatively small amount of explosive that could be contained in the bullet, limiting their effectiveness, their role being successfully fulfilled by the use of Mark 6 and 7 incendiary bullets."

I wonder if the US were supplying the simplified projectiles under lend lease before they were given a designation by the British?

Cheers!

I've got myself mixed up. The Mk.VI was sent to the Americans in 1940 who simplified the production and this new round (as we know) became the Mk.VII. I'd think that the Americans were supplying us with Mk.VI ammunition until the Mk.VII became available in 1942 but this is only speculation on my part.