AI is on top of my list

[Rattlehead]

Originally Posted by buddye

I also am very interested in AI. As a volunteer BDG (BOB Development Group) member, I have worked on the BOBII AI over 6 years trying to improve it and make it more human like.

The AI is not just designing to a spec. The AI is more of an art.

Well, I know I'm certainly not alone in appreciating the efforts of development teams and testers in trying to make AI more advanced and believeable. As you say, it is something of an art form and sadly something that seems to be a dying art form at that.
However, to me and I'm sure many others, great AI is every bit as important as other aspects of a game, and it's something that should never be ignored or skimmed over by developers.

[SNAFU]

In the new system you cannot strictly draw a line between SP and MP and the AI, because the AI is getting more a part of MP, compared to 1946 (without mods).

Therefore I would love to see better AI, but what is better AI worth, if the netcode cannot support more than 15 AI planes in a coop mission, otherwise the planes warp, lag or are not drawn at all (see ghost/phantom planes)? Seeing improvement of the AI as long term project, I would first focus on the obvious problems and bugs:

FM (performance of the existing planes before introducing new ones f.e. service ceiling ) -> SP&MP
Network (get rid of the ghost dots and warp-fest of AI) -> MP
LOD (dots visibilty) -> SP&MP
AI -> SP&MP

[SG1_Lud]

Originally Posted by SNAFU

In the new system you cannot strictly draw a line between SP and MP and the AI, because the AI is getting more a part of MP, compared to 1946 (without mods).

Therefore I would love to see better AI, but what is better AI worth, if the netcode cannot support more than 15 AI planes in a coop mission, otherwise the planes warp, lag or are not drawn at all (see ghost/phantom planes)? Seeing improvement of the AI as long term project, I would first focus on the obvious problems and bugs:

FM (performance of the existing planes before introducing new ones f.e. service ceiling ) -> SP&MP
Network (get rid of the ghost dots and warp-fest of AI) -> MP
LOD (dots visibilty) -> SP&MP
AI -> SP&MP

+1


...and if world were perfect, to hire the talented guy who made -BOB II WOV- AI, no need to reinvent the wheel.

[Mysticpuma]

Said it before and I'll say it again, the AI in BoBII WoV is the only AI I have competed against that made me actually think I was against a real player.

At the point I ended up in a Rolling Scissors against a 109 I was really hooked!

If you want to experience true Flight Simulation AI, load up BoBII WoV and then compare it with the AI in Clod.

BoBII is like playing chess against a Grandmaster while Clod is like playing against your mate who thinks he can use the Pawn's to jump over pieces and remove them from the board!

Sign up Buddeye and pay him a salary...he'll be worth every penny!

BTW, I fly mainly offline at the moment as CloD doesn't really interest me that much online as I don't have the time to go through learning CEM, so offline is fine for now.

Eventually I will learn CEM but for now I just want to have a little fun and compete against quality AI, and at the moment....we don't have any!

Cheers, MP

[buddye]

The problem with realistic and Human like AI is that it is so very costly.

The developing of realistic Flight Sim AI can “not” really be coded to a spec (like graphics, landscape, textures, hardware interfaces, multi player, canned missions, etc.) where the cost can be accurately estimated and bounded. Developing AI is a process (develop, test, refine, test, refine, etc). You are trying to simulate a human whose options and thinking are almost endless.

AI Robots can be built today if their functions are limited (repeatable task like the auto robots) but the building of human robots would require the refinement and testing process with endless delays and the cost gets too high or out of control. It is almost impossible to "bound" human thinking (say a good pilot, as individuals solve problems and invent solutions in an almost infinite manner).

Combat Flight Sim AI has the same problem. The development cost to make the AI more human and thinking is just too high. The game developers are force to get the AI working and call a stop to the refinement process. They can not continue the process too long because of cost.

In BOBII, we work for free. We get endless ideas from our players and testers which we can use for the BOBII AI refinement process.. The implementation and testing is still very difficult requiring much refinement and some really good testers who can offer refinements. We have been refining the AI in BOBII using this refinement process for 5 years. We could go on forever with the only limit being “new” ideas and experienced manpower.

The answer IMHO is simple, the Flight Sim game industry, the developer, can not afford the money for an effective and complete human like AI system (a commercial game developer really can not afford a BOBII like refinement process). Only the military or NASA can afford to develop smart, effective, thinking, and human like AI and even they have had limited success, as yet..

[addman]

Originally Posted by buddye

The problem with realistic and Human like AI is that it is so very costly.

The developing of realistic Flight Sim AI can “not” really be coded to a spec (like graphics, landscape, textures, hardware interfaces, multi player, canned missions, etc.) where the cost can be accurately estimated and bounded. Developing AI is a process (develop, test, refine, test, refine, etc). You are trying to simulate a human whose options and thinking are almost endless.

AI Robots can be built today if their functions are limited (repeatable task like the auto robots) but the building of human robots would require the refinement and testing process with endless delays and the cost gets too high or out of control. It is almost impossible to "bound" human thinking (say a good pilot, as individuals solve problems and invent solutions in an almost infinite manner).

Combat Flight Sim AI has the same problem. The development cost to make the AI more human and thinking is just too high. The game developers are force to get the AI working and call a stop to the refinement process. They can not continue the process too long because of cost.

In BOBII, we work for free. We get endless ideas from our players and testers which we can use for the BOBII AI refinement process.. The implementation and testing is still very difficult requiring much refinement and some really good testers who can offer refinements. We have been refining the AI in BOBII using this refinement process for 5 years. We could go on forever with the only limit being “new” ideas and experienced manpower.

The answer IMHO is simple, the Flight Sim game industry, the developer, can not afford the money for an effective and complete human like AI system (a commercial game developer really can not afford a BOBII like refinement process). Only the military or NASA can afford to develop smart, effective, thinking, and human like AI and even they have had limited success, as yet..

BINGO! I remember over ten years ago, playing European Air War and thinking "The A.I is ok in this sim but in ten years it's gonna be like freaking Skynet type of A.I!". Here we are, multiple CPU cores later and the A.I is dumber than ever. Why? As the poster above mentioned, money! A.I programming is so costly that even the biggest of the biggest game studios has to cut corners to get their software out the doors. You see games like Call of Duty where the A.I has the IQ of a golf ball but it doesn't matter since 90% of all the action is scripted. When I think more about it, I'm amazed MG managed to get the A.I they have now out the door considering their -probably- scarce resources. IMO, let the community experts get their hands on the code give it a gosh because they are willing and willing to do it for FREE!

Below is a horrible example of how scripting is almost replacing A.I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RULv6HbgEjY

[nearmiss]

buddye

It seems to me from what you say, if a developer like COD wanted a competent AI performance then the best course of action would be to open the source in such fashion as to allow coding for the AI.

AI performance improvements would come from competent programming and a community involvement over time.

There could be benefits to developer, because it would take the "hot potato" of AI developement from the developer and hand it off to the community.

Naturally a reasonable AI performance package would have to be coded as a starter package. The AI would thereafter be done over time with 3rd party community developers and feedback from the community.

I could live with that, and actually I'd be thrilled with the prospects that we could eventually have an outstanding AI performance package.

[adonys]

That's exactly what we should ask for: MG to open AI over-coding in an additional dll.

Maybe then the buddye and his mates from WoV BoB 2 could help with it, or anyone else with spare time and interest.

[Les]

Maybe the community should compile a list of AI attributes or features that the developers or modders could use as a sort of checklist.

Something separated into two general categories of Friendly and Enemy AI. Then further separated into three categories of, Essential, Desired, and Ideal AI qualities or abilities.

In the Essential category you could have not just positive pre-requisites, but negative ones too, things along the lines of what the Friendly or Enemy AI must never do or fail at.

In the Desired category you could have more advanced features that should be possible given the current technology, but which aren't game-breakers like in the Essential category.

In the Ideal category you could have wishful thinking, 'it would be good if we could one day have such and such a feature' type ideas.

Just putting it out there. Might be more constructive and proactive than just waiting to see what the developers or modders do then reacting to that after it happens. Create some guidelines so the developers know what the community considers to be fundamentally necessary or essential, what they consider to be worth trying to achieve beyond that, and what they don't really expect to be done but would hold as the highest achievement or aim.

[Space Communist]

Originally Posted by SNAFU

In the new system you cannot strictly draw a line between SP and MP and the AI, because the AI is getting more a part of MP, compared to 1946 (without mods).

Therefore I would love to see better AI, but what is better AI worth, if the netcode cannot support more than 15 AI planes in a coop mission, otherwise the planes warp, lag or are not drawn at all (see ghost/phantom planes)? Seeing improvement of the AI as long term project, I would first focus on the obvious problems and bugs:

FM (performance of the existing planes before introducing new ones f.e. service ceiling ) -> SP&MP
Network (get rid of the ghost dots and warp-fest of AI) -> MP
LOD (dots visibilty) -> SP&MP
AI -> SP&MP

Exactly. MP is never going to be great without good AI in the mix. particularly for me, since I only like co-op with friends.