Spitfire IIa prop pitch

[JG53Frankyboy]

During BoB there were A LOT of Bf109s in active service still with manual pitch.

I cant count anymore how often we had this in the forums
here is just one example
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=22204

So , its all do the decission of 1C what propeller system they will give the BoB time 109s - they cant decide wrong !

[Crumpp]

Ok, from December of 1939 it was introduced.

I read that thread.

You have a copy of the Bf-109E Flugzeug handbuch where the automatik propeller is covered and included from December 1939. That means it was in use on the aircraft from December 1939 forward. Probably even sooner as the normal procedure is a Technical bulletin is issued until the POH is republished and updated. It also does not tell us the extent of operational use.

IIRC, VDM did not produce both types concurrently. The automatic propeller superseded the variable pitch only propeller in VDM production and as the propellers were overhauled, they were upgraded.

It also seems the claim is being made the propeller was not introduced until September 1940. That claim introduces a translated OKL document that raises the rpm limit for the engine and instructs that only Mtt and VDM can modify the governor for the new rpm limits. Both companies are working as fast as possible to make the necessary modifications to comply with the new rpm limits.

That document does not say a thing about the introduction timeline of the VDM propeller "mit automatik" and does not shed any light on the extent of propellers use operationally.

[nakedsquirrel]

I'm still learning about prop pitch, so bear with me, but I'm still a bit confused because the Hurricane Rotol behaves much differently than the Spit IIa.

While flying the Rotol, I find I get a better cruise / dive speed when I pull the prop pitch lever back to 40-50%.

When I do this, the Boost needle goes up while the RPM gauge drops down. (so, high manifold pressure, low rpms)

This is similar with the Hurri DH, Spit I and Ia except that those Spits have the 2 settings, full fine/ full coarse

In the Spit II, however, when I pull back on the pitch, my RPM drops and my speed drops. Even in a shallow dive, pulling back on the pitch lever still reduced my speed. That's the opposite effect that the control has on the Hurri Rotol.

No comment on the German aircraft because they all seem to make sense to me.

[Blackdog_kt]

First of all, pitch is not the slider's position but the angle of the blades in relation to the oncoming airflow.


In keeping with the analogy of gears in a car, a fixed pitch prop is like having a car with a single gear, the early Hurri and Spit dual-position props are like having two separate fixed pitch props that you can change in flight or like having a car with two gears (one for low speed and initial acceleration and one for high speed and fuel economy).

The manually adjustable props found in 109s and 110s are like a fully manual car transmission, with the added caveat that it's continuous and not in discrete steps: you don't only have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc gears, you also have all the in-between settings and this gives slower but finer control.

The car analogy is preferred simply because it exhibits similar use, even though the actual workings of it all are fundamentally different:

If you want to drive uphill or limit your speed when driving downhill you use a lower gear that gives higher RPM for the same position of the gas pedal, you do the same in the aircraft by selecting a finer pitch with higher RPM.

If you want to pick up speed when driving downhill or attain your top speed you switch to a higher gear, RPM drops initially but as you keep accelerating it builds back up, it's the same with selecting a coarser pitch.

And if you try driving uphill on a high gear/low RPM without having enough speed your car can't do it, similar when trying to climb in an aircraft with coarse pitch it only works if you have enough starting airspeed.


A CSP prop is one where the pilot affects the governor state (either through oil pressure/quantity in the governor or a mechanism of flywheels and inertial balancing), each governor configuration corresponds to a certain RPM value and then it's a case of balancing forces:
if the airflow is acting against the prop, pitch changes one way, if the airflow effect is lessened pitch moves the other way.

In this way, depending on forward speed the pitch (the angle of the blades) is constantly changed to maintain steady RPM without intervention from the pilot. The lever might not move, but the blade angle is changing whenever your airspeed or throttle does.

In other words, it's like having all the in-between gears again, but this time it's shifting automatically whenever you exceed or drop below the RPM specified by the governor. If you set a CSP for 2800 RPM, whenever you hit that RPM the blade pitch will coarsen a bit more and this ensures you keep accelerating optimally at all times. If on the the other hand you are climbing and your airspeed drops and RPM drops too, the blade angle will automatically move to a finer pitch to bring the RPM back up.

Imagine driving a car where you can select at exactly which RPM it will shift gears.
If you wanted a responsive drive with lots of speed changes and "nervous", immediate response to your gas pedal (whether accelerating or decelerating), you'd tell it to shift at an RPM range that you know your car behaves with more "nerve". This is like being in a dogfight (sudden speed changes and need for responsiveness) and that's why we select a higher RPM for the prop governor to maintain.
If you just wanted to go on an easy ride without burning a lot of fuel, you'd tell it to shift gears at a lower value. This is similar to cruising in the aircraft and that's why we pull back the lever a bit and have the governor settle the RPMs a bit lower.

Then on top of that, imagine that gears are not discrete steps but a continuous adjustment in the transmission, so that you only have to worry about pressing or releasing the gas pedal to maintain the speed you want and you are automatically shifting gears to ensure optimum usage of your fuel and motor depending on what you want to do. Pretty neat, huh? It's no wonder pilots considered it a big deal



The auto prop on the 109s is not like that however. The final effects are similar to a CSP but the operating principle is not. Instead of using a governor mechanism, they actually "tied" each throttle position to a certain pitch (or was it RPM?) value and further fine-tuned it by adding instrumentation that measured the amount of load on the engine.

In other words, the 109's auto-prop is much like having an early analog computer operating the prop in the same manner that the pilot manually would: by directly influencing the blade angles through motors and not by indirectly commanding a certain RPM via a governor mechanism.

Here's a pretty good link explaining how it works (i got it from the other thread linked a few posts above): http://marseillegruppe.com/foro/view...f328cb9d3b84f4

[Crumpp]

The auto prop on the 109s is not like that however.

NO...You have confused automatic devices.

The VDM hydraulic electric propellers are CSP in hydraulic mode and variable pitch in electric mode.

Schwarz-man, whom I know and he is correct in his explanation of how the SYSTEM works.

He is describing the interaction of the CSP PROPELLER with MANIFOLD PRESSURE of the ENGINE!!

This eliminated the pilot from having to adjust PROPELLER RPM as with ANY CSP and then have to adjust ENGINE MANIFOLD PRESSURE. It reduced his workload when compared to a using a CSP on regular aircraft engine with manual controls.

[CaptainDoggles]

Regardless of what it was in real life, in game on the 109E-1 and E-3 the propeller behaves as a variable-pitch prop. There's no auto mode.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

NO...You have confused automatic devices.

The VDM hydraulic electric propellers are CSP in hydraulic mode and variable pitch in electric mode.

Schwarz-man, whom I know and he is correct in his explanation of how the SYSTEM works.

He is describing the interaction of the CSP PROPELLER with MANIFOLD PRESSURE of the ENGINE!!

This eliminated the pilot from having to adjust PROPELLER RPM as with ANY CSP and then have to adjust ENGINE MANIFOLD PRESSURE. It reduced his workload when compared to a using a CSP on regular aircraft engine with manual controls.

Yup, my understanding is that effectively the 109 Automatik is just the manifold pressure throttle linked to certain RPM, it keeps the

It wasn't fixed-pitch-to-certain-MAP since if you think about it - if *pitch* would be fixed, rpm would increase/decrease all the time as speed - and load on the propeller blades - would decrease/increase.

In essence its just a single lever CSP where you can set the rpm/map correctly quickly and convinient. You did not have to mind much how to set up the engine.

On Allied planes with CSP, you set the desired RPM and MAP seperately, and the system would keep the RPM constant, by adjusting the pitch as needed. You still had to set the optimal RPM/MAP combination manually, by using two seperate levers, and there was a bit of a backside, since you had to do this in correct order , IIRC/AFAIK for example when increasing power, first RPM needed to be increased with the RPM lever, then boost, otherwise you would run the engine at low rpm / high boost which would stress the engine. The downside was that it required more attention from the pilot, and a bit of extra work.*

This was not modelled correctly in old Il2, and I as I recall it still isn't in COD.

* later it seems that a simplistic mechanical "system" was introduced, according to later Spitfire manuals for example that mention interconnected control. This however I believe was fitted only the some later Mark batches - impossible to tell which ones and how many - and not all planes, and the system was merely a metal rod that ensured that if MAP was increased, the MAP lever grabbed the RPM lever and pushed it forward, too. But unlike on the 109, it did not give optimal rpm/map combinations on most of the lever movement range, it just enabled the pilot firewall the throttle quickly and push both rpm/map the maximum regime.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

NO...You have confused automatic devices.

The VDM hydraulic electric propellers are CSP in hydraulic mode and variable pitch in electric mode.

Schwarz-man, whom I know and he is correct in his explanation of how the SYSTEM works.

He is describing the interaction of the CSP PROPELLER with MANIFOLD PRESSURE of the ENGINE!!

This eliminated the pilot from having to adjust PROPELLER RPM as with ANY CSP and then have to adjust ENGINE MANIFOLD PRESSURE. It reduced his workload when compared to a using a CSP on regular aircraft engine with manual controls.

+1

I hve eard of that also since long.

Two set of pitch ctrl mechanisms from early design : hydro and elec (that's why the pitch adjust itself slower when eng is off).

The manual pitch crtl was selected only at T.O and landing (11h45 and 11h30 are the value standing in my memory)

The system auto adjust the best pitch value in fonction of eng boost, speed (my guess - not sure ) and barometric alt leading to a given rpm.

It's a primitive version of the system found in the 190 but seemingly working fine as it was installed even on latte war versions.

That wld be interesting to dig into that .

Regarding the Merlin CSP, it was a demanding arrangement. You can found trace of this in the Merlin's mustang evaluation report that clearly say that despite increased workload for the pilot the new perfs achievable was a fair price to pay.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Yup, my understanding is that effectively the 109 Automatik is just the manifold pressure throttle linked to certain RPM, it keeps the

It wasn't fixed-pitch-to-certain-MAP since if you think about it - if *pitch* would be fixed, rpm would increase/decrease all the time as speed - and load on the propeller blades - would decrease/increase.

In essence its just a single lever CSP where you can set the rpm/map correctly quickly and convinient. You did not have to mind much how to set up the engine.

On Allied planes with CSP, you set the desired RPM and MAP seperately, and the system would keep the RPM constant, by adjusting the pitch as needed. You still had to set the optimal RPM/MAP combination manually, by using two seperate levers, and there was a bit of a backside, since you had to do this in correct order , IIRC/AFAIK for example when increasing power, first RPM needed to be increased with the RPM lever, then boost, otherwise you would run the engine at low rpm / high boost which would stress the engine. The downside was that it required more attention from the pilot, and a bit of extra work.*

This was not modelled correctly in old Il2, and I as I recall it still isn't in COD.

* later it seems that a simplistic mechanical "system" was introduced, according to later Spitfire manuals for example that mention interconnected control. This however I believe was fitted only the some later Mark batches - impossible to tell which ones and how many - and not all planes, and the system was merely a metal rod that ensured that if MAP was increased, the MAP lever grabbed the RPM lever and pushed it forward, too. But unlike on the 109, it did not give optimal rpm/map combinations on most of the lever movement range, it just enabled the pilot firewall the throttle quickly and push both rpm/map the maximum regime.

Yes, you' right. I guess it tied RPM values to MAP values (which means changing pitch to maintain RPM). Well, that's what i get for typing posts about technical things late at night

Also, very interesting what Crumpp has to say. I read that link a while ago and always had the impression those props were only electric and the auto-system just changed pitch to maintain the MAP-RPM relations specified. So they were actually electric in manual mode and hydraylic in auto mode? Very interesting system.

[Crumpp]

I think the confusion comes from the fact the propeller is electric. An electric motor is what changes the blade pitch.

The motor is operated by a hydraulic switch in normal operations and functions as a CSP. The hydraulic's reads the engine rpm and converts it hydraulic pressure with a regulator. That pressure then operates the electric motor to adjust the blade pitch to maintain the calibrated rpm. This way, both engine and propeller can be operated with a single lever in normal operations.

In an emergency, the pilot can manually operate the electric motor to change the blade pitch to maintain rpm or feather the propeller should he lose hydraulic pressure.