water cannon

[Wolf_Rider]

you have me at a bit of a loss there andyjwest... get over what?

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

...and when any debate about crime, anywhere on the internet, ends up regurgitating the endless obsession of US politics with guns, there is boredom. There is more to life than shooting people. Get over it...

And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

[unreasonable]

Note how some US contributors to this thread have changed the argument (and I have summarised rather than respond to specific posts because there are so many):

- The main point at issue has been whether restrictive gun laws, in the UK, are, on balance, a good thing, given the context of the recent youth riots.

- Generally US contributors have said that the UK laws are not a good thing, since they mean that good citizens are limited in their ability to defend themselves against bad citizens, or against tyrannical government.

- Generally UK contributors have said that the UK laws are a good thing, since they prefer to be unarmed, which is an increasingly untenable position in an armed society, and they believe that the threats of crime and tyranny are better addressed through the normal workings of constitutional monarchy.

So far so reasonable.....

- There has been no comment from Euro contributors (that I have noticed), about the right of US citizens to decide their own gun laws, own guns in the US, or the desirability or feasibility of the US moving to a gun law system similar to that of the UK.

- In contrast, some US contributors have held up the specific premises of the US political system as though they were universal truths: in particular the premises that disarming the people must necessarily lead to tyranny, and that democracy is always just mob rule.

In my view this point of view fails to take into account the specific history, culture and background of different societies. Just because something is "self-evident" to you, it does not make it "self-evident" to everyone else, or for that matter " a fact". But at least these issue should be capable of being addressed by rational discourse with a minimum of rhetoric.

- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country, and resorted to extraordinary vitriol, questioning the age, motivations, courage and and knowledge of those voicing contrary views through a barrage of ad hominem attacks and smears by association. Shame on you!

[ruggbutt]

Originally Posted by unreasonable

- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country................Shame on you!

What hasn't been discussed and I feel is every bit as important is the surveillance the British people are under. You can't walk 20 feet w/out government cameras watching..............IMHO that's even worse than them being unarmed. Brits can't be trusted, their government's actions say this with it's actions. There's a huge difference in our two cultures but I have to agree that the England of two decades ago isn't the same country. The people seem more "beat down". That was my impression anyway.

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by BadAim

And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

[baronWastelan]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..as I said, you must be 12, both because of your infantile sense of humour and because you can't even spell your nickname properly.. it's vengeance, not vengeanze, genius..

The name Vengeanze has been around since the beginning, and as an elder deserves our respect, irregardless of his misguided ideals. I remember him from the pre-FB days.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

*facepalm*

no it's not. similarly armour is what knights wear, football is played with a round ball, and you're meant to drive on the left.

dude, go back there if you want to own a shedload of firearms. if i want to smoke pot all day i'll move to holland. if i wanted to be teetotal i'd move to the UAE.

Another BNP advocate.. sorry, I need to be here and contribute to your welfare society by offering my specialised work skills, paying taxes also to pay a lot of our fellow citizen who live off the state.. I dunno if this "you don't like it? You go back where you came from!" is because of the keyboard hero syndrome or because you really think so, well if you do you're not thinking in a democratic way. Where do you live exactly? In the countryside or in a big city? Pot is all over the place, fortunately illegal firearms aren't.

Again, I can still own and shoot most firearms here, so I don't see what you're on about

also, ftr, the politicians acted after people with licensed firearms went mental and killed dozens of people. this is when you could own firearms if you wanted, so you can't even say that is why people died - because no one else was armed to intervene.

"people that went mental" was 4 cases in god knows how many years, the fault is not only of the killers, but of the system with which you assign licenses here, there is not a proper psychological assessment. After it happened now the Police shows up at your place and checks on you and the way you store your firearms. It's always after that they adjust things, there is no pro-active thinking. As for why nobody else intervened, read about the scenarios and times when this was done, don't blurt out sentences that you think will go in favour of your argument.

Again, another uninformed sheep that wants to win an argument with nothing.

hmm.

not sure you're quite aware of the changes tbh.

it used to be that you could defend yourself with whatever came to hand, and as long as they a. didn't have their back to you fleeing, and b. you hadn't ejected them from your property and then gone back inside for the first thing that came to hand. if you either killed or injured them, and neither a. nor b. was the case, it was classed as self defence.

now you can have a baseball bat or whatever by your bed with the express purpose of defending yourself. a. and b. still apply.

nope, you would get arrested if you killed the guy or wounded him (cos yes, he could sue you for assault and say "I entered cos the door was open"), again, read your things better. Remember the Indian family in Birmingham who attacked the intruder with a cricket bat?

it is something that happened 70 years ago which we recreate with pixels. not sure quite what your point is.

there you go, denial. Why you think they're putting age ratings on games? Do you think it's morally correct to play games about crime? Or let children play with it? You need to be able to discern from reality and fiction, but some people cant, getting more and more de-sensibilised in front of death and destruction.
Think of GTA series, is that a "good" game? And what if they made a game about rape or paedophilia? would that be ok cos it's only pixels? It should, since you think that homicide is ok if it's a videogame..

seems you're off on it as well. the british public called for handguns and assault weapons to be banned. democracy in action, pretty much.

the British public was brainwashed cos it was convenient to the Government. You really don't get it do you? They don't trust you, they don't want you to be armed, there's cameras everywhere, but they're not there to prevent crime, they're there to gather evidence. It's all an illusion, and the unpredictability of the recent riots shows what could happen.

you have a right to exercise your hobbies where they do not contravene the law, nor spirit of the law of the land.

My hobbies don't contravene the law nor the spirit of the country, but then we're talking about a country where regularly some extremists burn poppies (symbol of all the fallen soldiers here in the UK) and your flags on the streets and you don't do anything about it.. it really boggles my mind!

and then to cap it all you start calling people 12 year olds, whilst simultaneously missing the difference between playing make believe pew pew computer games... and actually shooting someone dead.

jesus.

given your display here, i'm damn glad they restrict your access to firearms.

You, being raised as a selfish individual who follows the flock, think there's no difference between the message given by a videogame and real life, because it's convenient to you, just like the way people get driving licenses here, it's a case of "hey, I need a car" not "hey, driving a car is a responsibility, maybe we should be stricter about it"..

Uh and btw sorry to disappoint, I still have access to firearms, and potentially I could bring most of my own collection here too, if you're not happy about it, talk to your Government..

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

you watched far too much Hollywood stuff man. Why you have this fixed idea that if you want to own a gun is just cos you want to shoot someone?!

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

The name Vengeanze has been around since the beginning, and as an elder deserves our respect, irregardless of his misguided ideals. I remember him from the pre-FB days.

well I've been around since the beginning of IL-2 and I don't see why someone else should mock my nickname, not cos I'm offended, I just don't understand what is the point in this conversation. It's very childish me thinks..

[drewpee]

Fact, the more guns the more people get killed.

London riots were shocking but I find it incredible that so few were injured or killed.